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Static Compression vs Dynamic Compression

GT63

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I found this article and found it very interesting. After running my engine numbers through his little program, It says my cam is way too big and might explain why I'm having a few issues with my engine since converting to a blown EFI set-up. . It definitely makes you think about your cam choice and bigger is not always better. :rolleyes:

What do the engine experts here think of the article? Should we try to keep close to the 7.5 to 8.5 Dynamic Compression Ratio ?


Dynamic Compression Article
 
Grant, mine came in at 7.785 with this cam. What cam are you running?

I wonder how applicable that calculator is to blown motors. Since having a blower increases our volumetric efficienty considerably, I would think our dynamic compression ratios are going to be considerably higher. Or does this calculator even take VE into consideration? Am I wrong in thinking that it would be a factor?
 
I found this article and found it very interesting. After running my engine numbers through his little program, It says my cam is way too big and might explain why I'm having a few issues with my engine since converting to a blown EFI set-up. . It definitely makes you think about your cam choice and bigger is not always better. :rolleyes:

What do the engine experts here think of the article? Should we try to keep close to the 7.5 to 8.5 Dynamic Compression Ratio ?


Dynamic Compression Article


I'll admit that I just skimmed your artical, so this may have been covered and I missed it, but back in the mid 70s, when low compression became the bain of high performance factory engines, Crower did a lot of reserch on making cams that built high combustion presures with the low static compression ratios which had become necessary for emissions. Crower had a line of cams that were supose to address the problem, but they must not have been popular enough to continue making them. in fact I haven't heard much about this whole subject in 25 years since then, so it's good to get a refreasher course. I believe Crowers solution basicly was to open and close the valves much quicker (steeper ramps) for max volumn of fuel/air with minimum duration. in other words, it's not just the duration (and lift) that makes or breaks the package. the cam profile is a very key factor.

Thanks for the reminder,
Russ
 
Grant, mine came in at 7.785 with this cam. What cam are you running?

I wonder how applicable that calculator is to blown motors. Since having a blower increases our volumetric efficienty considerably, I would think our dynamic compression ratios are going to be considerably higher. Or does this calculator even take VE into consideration? Am I wrong in thinking that it would be a factor?

Hey Lee, My DCR came out to 6.5 , I'm running a Comp Cams 12-404-4 blower cam. My Static CR is 8.1:1. I'm running KB Forge blower pistons with the -18cc dish. The heads are the Edelbrock Performer RPM aluminum heads with 70cc chambers.

I tried to email the guy that wrote the article and ask about the effects of a blower on his calculations, but the email address he has listed is bad. I did read another article that mentioned the VE while running a blower is about 115% if it's overdriven. I'm running mine 1:1 right now. ever since switched to EFI , I haven't been able to get a good idle and the engine seems to run rough, at least to me. I'm running 93 Octane with Octane boost and it still seems to me that it struggles to run smooth. Almost like the CR is too low even with the blower on it. At some point while we were tuning on it, we must have got it too hot or got too much pressure in the crank case because both front and rear seals are leaking pretty good. I figured if I was going to have to pull it out and replace the seals I'd look at maybe a cam swap and switching to a crank trigger for the ECU.

This close to Christmas, things tend to slow down at work, so I was trying to do some research to find a solution. I've gone through every HP book I have, which is quite a few and re-read the 3 books on Supercharging I have trying to find some answers.

Even the tech that was helping me tune it back in October, said it didn't sound like it had enough CR in it. He could hear the exhaust over the phone and said it didn't sound right. LOL I pulled the plugs and they were all over the place. I'm running those new E3 plugs and it just about every other one was sooty black while the others were nice and brown. I've had a few other folks look at it too, and we're all shaking our heads. I know I'll figure it out, eventually. I just have to find the right combination for the EFI and blower.
 
Well, I have an 8.7:1 static CR (64cc heads with -18cc KB pistons), so that might explain a lot of the difference. I can't find your cam on Comp's web site to compare it to mine.
 
Not sure what I did wrong the first time, but I went back to the Comp site and was able to find your cam this time.


Here is yours...


comp12-404-4.jpg



Here is mine...


comp08-301-8.jpg



I guess my first question would be, are you sure about the part number for your cam? Look at the description for yours. Is yours really a hydraulic flat tappet?

Assuming those are the right specs for your cam, mine is actually a little "bigger" than yours, so according to the theory, my DCR should be lower than yours, right? Maybe I messed up something in the calculator. I had to guess at piston to deck height... I guess that could make a lot of difference if I'm off.
 
Good article, Grant. Yes, dynamic CR is extremely critical. Because that is what is determining actual cylinder pressure. Static CR gives you a way to compare apples to apples, but once the camshaft profile is introduced into the equation, you're comparing apples to oranges.

As camshaft profiles move increasingly larger, particularly with later closing intake valves, cylinder pressure will be reduced by default. As cylinder pressure goes away, the ability to convert fuel to heat will correspondingly decrease. Less heat = less power. The only way to increase cylinder pressure is to raise static CR.

If you go the other way and try to run a lot of static CR with a fairly small and tame cam profile, cylinder pressure will be way too high.

Your blower combination is a beast of a different color, but with a naturally-aspirated motor, cranking compression numbers will generally be fairly close, no matter if it is a car on a dealership floor, a drag car or an oval track car. You would think a drag car with 16:1+ static CR would have really high numbers, but the big camshaft pulls cylinder pressures back. The car sitting in the showroom has very low static CR, but the camshaft gets the intake valve closed early, which lets the engine build more cylinder pressure.

Back a century or two ago, we were at the race track and tuning a pig. We had a fairly new combination with a different camshaft profile than we normally ran. To top it off, we were running more altitude that we normally ran. And we were lost. Out came the trusty compression tester and we started rolling the cam around, trying to find the highest compression numbers. And can you imagine, the car actually started running.

A lot of cam manufacturers will end up with a late-closing intake valve. They're trying to use the exhaust pulse wave to help with cylinder fill, for one. Second, they're dealing with a larger valve than on the exhaust side. Bigger valves mean more mass. More mass means inertia. So they will try to be lazy about bringing the intake valve back to the seat, to keep it from bouncing. Late closing intake valves mean the pistons are already moving up in the cylinder. And for every degree of rotation the intake valve is still open, that is more cylinder pressure being sacrificed. Ever seen an motor that had sooty intake ports? That motor was an excellent example of a poor camshaft/static CR mix.

As for your E3 plugs, I would drop them in the nearest trash bin and go back to a regular plug. The whole E3 advertising campaign is reminiscent of the old Split-Fire plugs, defined in three words. Snake. Oil. Medicine.

There is one, only one, no more than one and I repeat, just one way to make power with a spark plug. Run enough ignition system to allow you to open up the plug gaps. Full stop. Once you have a plug of the correct heat range to live in the given cylinder, you can run a Champion, AC, Autolite and never see spit's difference between any of them. On the dyno, or at the racetrack. But you can open up the plug gap and expose more of the plug's flame kernel to the fuel-filled cylinder. The E3 plug goes directly back against that fact, as they end up caging the kernel with additional side electrodes.

In most instances, we needed to index spark plugs in the race motors to get the side electrode clear of the piston dome. But when we would get the side electrodes up at the top of the chamber, that also exposed the flame kernel as much as possible. If you can open up the plug gap a bit, you create a larger kernel.

We made up a test block we could thread 8 spark plugs into and used as many different plugs as possible. We would stick a distributor into the machine, put a cap and plug wires on it and run the wires to the plugs in our test block. Shut out the lights in the room and start the machine. The brightest light in the block is the best plug you can use, because it will have the largest kernel and the best shot at creating a good flame front. Anyone remember when the Bosch platinum plugs were the bee's knees? They had tiny, needle-like, center electrodes and the flame kernel was just as tiny. And, as you might imagine, they didn't perform nearly as well as regular plugs.

I always preferred to use Champion plugs, because of the cad-plated shells. It makes the plug much easier to read for heat, as the heat ring will be more evident. All the fancy business with magnifying lights will get you close when you're looking for 'pepper' on the porcelain, but once you've checked that, the outside of the shell is what you want to be looking at. As a matter of fact, if the ignition system is hot enough to do a good job, trying to read the plugs for color goes out the window, because they will all look white.

Plugs on a street motor are extremely hard to read, because you end up with so much idle time. You can have a plug take on a lot of color at idle and never clean up enough to show you what conditions are like under power. But then you always get the Einsteins that sit at a light, revving the motor, just "to keep the plugs clean". :rofl:
 
Hey Lee, Check out the attached image. My DCR came out to 6.66021.
 

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Hey Mike, What's your best guess as to what the effect of a 6-71 producing 5-8 lbs of boost on Dynamic CR? I haven't been able to find a formula for it yet. :)
 
Well, I'm not sure what this means, but I went back to the calculator and made all the parameters match yours, except for the cam specs. So this should be telling us what the difference in DCR is based on the differences in our cams.

dcr1.jpg



Virtually no difference!! :shrug2:
 
GT,I don't believe your issues are related to static or dynamic at all.With a lower initial cr of both you and Lee..7:1,33% overdriven .530/.510/284/305/112 cam,I believe you are suffering the same issue I fought on my last blower build.It thumps real hard"sound",but if you watch and feel the motor it is as stable as a rock but before was not happy with the lower rpm's similar to yours and moved on the mounts ever so slightly.The problem I see is in your cam profile is tpi friendly but not induction friendly;same on all nitrous,blown,turbo,not enough timing on the lift on the exhaust side.But easy fix just as mine was,change out all your exhaust rockers from 1.5's to 1.6's and you now have a .484exh/.464in and it should make all the diff in the world as it did in mine.Hope it goes well
 
GT,I don't believe your issues are related to static or dynamic at all.With a lower initial cr of both you and Lee..7:1,33% overdriven .530/.510/284/305/112 cam,I believe you are suffering the same issue I fought on my last blower build.It thumps real hard"sound",but if you watch and feel the motor it is as stable as a rock but before was not happy with the lower rpm's similar to yours and moved on the mounts ever so slightly.The problem I see is in your cam profile is tpi friendly but not induction friendly;same on all nitrous,blown,turbo,not enough timing on the lift on the exhaust side.But easy fix just as mine was,change out all your exhaust rockers from 1.5's to 1.6's and you now have a .484exh/.464in and it should make all the diff in the world as it did in mine.Hope it goes well


Hey coops, Guess what? I left out the fact that all of the rocker arms are 1.6:1. :) I haven't tried the 1.5 intake, 1.6 exhaust yet. Might have to do that.
 
I would,it doesn't matter there just needs to be stagger on the exhaust side,timing higher on exhaust than intake for blower,turbo,nitrous.You could leave your 1.6 on intake and go with 1.72 on the exhaust for a .505 exh/.484 in.
 
Good article, Grant. Yes, dynamic CR is extremely critical. Because that is what is determining actual cylinder pressure. Static CR gives you a way to compare apples to apples, but once the camshaft profile is introduced into the equation, you're comparing apples to oranges.

As camshaft profiles move increasingly larger, particularly with later closing intake valves, cylinder pressure will be reduced by default. As cylinder pressure goes away, the ability to convert fuel to heat will correspondingly decrease. Less heat = less power. The only way to increase cylinder pressure is to raise static CR.

If you go the other way and try to run a lot of static CR with a fairly small and tame cam profile, cylinder pressure will be way too high.

Your blower combination is a beast of a different color, but with a naturally-aspirated motor, cranking compression numbers will generally be fairly close, no matter if it is a car on a dealership floor, a drag car or an oval track car. You would think a drag car with 16:1+ static CR would have really high numbers, but the big camshaft pulls cylinder pressures back. The car sitting in the showroom has very low static CR, but the camshaft gets the intake valve closed early, which lets the engine build more cylinder pressure.

Back a century or two ago, we were at the race track and tuning a pig. We had a fairly new combination with a different camshaft profile than we normally ran. To top it off, we were running more altitude that we normally ran. And we were lost. Out came the trusty compression tester and we started rolling the cam around, trying to find the highest compression numbers. And can you imagine, the car actually started running.

A lot of cam manufacturers will end up with a late-closing intake valve. They're trying to use the exhaust pulse wave to help with cylinder fill, for one. Second, they're dealing with a larger valve than on the exhaust side. Bigger valves mean more mass. More mass means inertia. So they will try to be lazy about bringing the intake valve back to the seat, to keep it from bouncing. Late closing intake valves mean the pistons are already moving up in the cylinder. And for every degree of rotation the intake valve is still open, that is more cylinder pressure being sacrificed. Ever seen an motor that had sooty intake ports? That motor was an excellent example of a poor camshaft/static CR mix.

As for your E3 plugs, I would drop them in the nearest trash bin and go back to a regular plug. The whole E3 advertising campaign is reminiscent of the old Split-Fire plugs, defined in three words. Snake. Oil. Medicine.

There is one, only one, no more than one and I repeat, just one way to make power with a spark plug. Run enough ignition system to allow you to open up the plug gaps. Full stop. Once you have a plug of the correct heat range to live in the given cylinder, you can run a Champion, AC, Autolite and never see spit's difference between any of them. On the dyno, or at the racetrack. But you can open up the plug gap and expose more of the plug's flame kernel to the fuel-filled cylinder. The E3 plug goes directly back against that fact, as they end up caging the kernel with additional side electrodes.

In most instances, we needed to index spark plugs in the race motors to get the side electrode clear of the piston dome. But when we would get the side electrodes up at the top of the chamber, that also exposed the flame kernel as much as possible. If you can open up the plug gap a bit, you create a larger kernel.

We made up a test block we could thread 8 spark plugs into and used as many different plugs as possible. We would stick a distributor into the machine, put a cap and plug wires on it and run the wires to the plugs in our test block. Shut out the lights in the room and start the machine. The brightest light in the block is the best plug you can use, because it will have the largest kernel and the best shot at creating a good flame front. Anyone remember when the Bosch platinum plugs were the bee's knees? They had tiny, needle-like, center electrodes and the flame kernel was just as tiny. And, as you might imagine, they didn't perform nearly as well as regular plugs.

I always preferred to use Champion plugs, because of the cad-plated shells. It makes the plug much easier to read for heat, as the heat ring will be more evident. All the fancy business with magnifying lights will get you close when you're looking for 'pepper' on the porcelain, but once you've checked that, the outside of the shell is what you want to be looking at. As a matter of fact, if the ignition system is hot enough to do a good job, trying to read the plugs for color goes out the window, because they will all look white.

Plugs on a street motor are extremely hard to read, because you end up with so much idle time. You can have a plug take on a lot of color at idle and never clean up enough to show you what conditions are like under power. But then you always get the Einsteins that sit at a light, revving the motor, just "to keep the plugs clean". :rofl:

Yea Mike....alot of people don't know the correct procedure :pilot: for a plug read. Its best NOT to try it in a quiet neighborhood! Ha! :thumb:
 
DYNAMIC COMPRESSION IS A FUNCTION OF PLACING FIXED VALUES ON SOME OF THE VARIABLES INVOLVED IN BUILDING AN ENGINE.

The power produced for a given engine is is determined by the volumetric efficiency throughout the operating range desired. Set all of the variables to get the highest possible VE and you will make the most power and then if you are curious and have some time to kill calculate your DCR. The DCR formula does not consider RPM's and the dynamics of air and fuel motion. This is why the author gives such a wide range for the ideal DCR. Forced induction really throws the DCR formula for a loop. It isn't even reliable for calculating octane requirements as timing and A/F ratios at any RPM's are not included in its calculations.

It makes for interesting winter bench racing, but don't buy next year's cam based on it.

Al
 
Al, I tend to agree with you, somewhat. In most street applications, people are looking at the power band a camshaft works well in (well, some people are looking at it) and just taking dynamic CR along for the ride. It is what it is. But that is also one of the reasons the cam manufacturers want so much engine data when you call them about a cam recommendation.

A race profile will be designed much more carefully, however. And then dynamic CR becomes a very large part of the equation. Cylinder pressure technology drifting into Pro Stock and Pro mod applications is what has allowed them to become as efficient as they are. When you're opening valves in the 1.250" range, you can't snap 2.480" intake valves open and closed with square lobes. But you do have to get the valve closed in order to build cylinder pressure, so there is a bit of a trade-off and the cost is reflected in valve spring replacement. When the titanium valve springs were still in favor, a set sold in the vicinity of $1800 and a typical Pro Stock application was good for 7-8 passes before replacement. Nobody wanted to over-stress the titanium springs, because they wouldn't just break like a steel spring, they would shatter, like glass. But something had to be done, because springs were getting so large that their own mass was getting difficult to control at high RPM. That's why you're starting to see smaller diameter springs being used, to decrease mass. Spring technology took a big jump and 1.550" springs are now capable of developing the same loads 1.750" springs were developing a few years back. But things will have to keep evolving, because as spring loads increased, pushrod deflection also increased. Most people are now using h-u-g-e pushrods, which has added more weight on the shoulder of the spring, so the springs will need to create more load. It never ends.

Those are the kinds of things people never see of even think about when they decide to order the camshaft for their street ride. They either decide to use an RV cam or a 3/4-race cam, because those are the two most-asked for cam profiles. :winkn: We cut the last four lobes off an old cast cam and I kept it under the counter for those people wanting a 3/4 cam. That opened a few eyes and dropped a few jaws. :nod:
 
That was a good article and losts of good posts. All of this just shows that when one designs an engine, many factors come into play. Ya just can't change one thing and expect a whole lot of HP gain. Sure, you can get some, but usually at a high cost per HP gained. All the components need to be compatable and designed to work with one another. When I was looking at this stuff for my engine I went through all of those decisions. Let's see, if I get a Trickflow Stage 1, then I'll need new valve springs. But, the Ford E7T heads will limit the flow so I'll need different heads or have them worked to increase flow. Now the intake; which one to get that matches the flows at the proper velocities. On and on....lots of $$$$$$. Then, it hit me. A stock engine will over power a 2,000 lb car. A truely high performance engine might not be a good street driver. So why do all that? Spend the money on other things. People already think my engine looks great and they certainly can't see whats inside it. Besides, I can always come back later and upgrade the engine should I ever want to do that.

Advice to newbies.....if ya want to build a race engine then be prepared to spend big bucks. Any stock V8 with a slighlty more agressive cam will make enough torque to over power your Bucket or 27T. Remember, if 250 ft-lbs will spin your tires, then 300 ft-lbs will just spin them sooner. Your car will not likely be a racer; but will be something for you to show and enjoy. Go for the bling if you can afford it but don't ever think you have to in order have a great car.
 
That was a good article and losts of good posts. All of this just shows that when one designs an engine, many factors come into play. Ya just can't change one thing and expect a whole lot of HP gain. Sure, you can get some, but usually at a high cost per HP gained. All the components need to be compatable and designed to work with one another. When I was looking at this stuff for my engine I went through all of those decisions. Let's see, if I get a Trickflow Stage 1, then I'll need new valve springs. But, the Ford E7T heads will limit the flow so I'll need different heads or have them worked to increase flow. Now the intake; which one to get that matches the flows at the proper velocities. On and on....lots of $$$. Then, it hit me. A stock engine will over power a 2,000 lb car. A truely high performance engine might not be a good street driver. So why do all that? Spend the money on other things. People already think my engine looks great and they certainly can't see whats inside it. Besides, I can always come back later and upgrade the engine should I ever want to do that.

Advice to newbies.....if ya want to build a race engine then be prepared to spend big bucks. Any stock V8 with a slighlty more agressive cam will make enough torque to over power your Bucket or 27T. Remember, if 250 ft-lbs will spin your tires, then 300 ft-lbs will just spin them sooner. Your car will not likely be a racer; but will be something for you to show and enjoy. Go for the bling if you can afford it but don't ever think you have to in order have a great car.

This is my view only
I have become fed up with pissing competitions or for a better word SPEC racing. I am more than happy with 400 clean HP and can not for a life of me see any reason to go for more in a Bucket. OK so you get boasting rights at the drive in but so what. A well set up 250HP bucket will kill most things off the lights.

Now we have the Bugatti Veron thats capable of 217MPH at last count. Well good for you Bugatti... I expect I can do that off the lights next time I pop into town for my food supplies. I can only remember two times in the last 10 years (apart from the race car) when I did over 100mph and that was late at night on a long stretch of highway that I knew well and there was not any Police about.
So my point is......
Get some good honest HP and forget the I got xxx hes got XXX and build an engine that suits your ride and makes you smile when you pedal it.
God I would be happy with 250BHP in my bucket. It would still make a good ride.

Lecture over from an old guy that had enough of this max power s###e.
Next thing you know we will be saying how much memory we have on our cell phones.

Gerry
 
Mike, I love the idea of the 3/4 race cam....I've got a couple of old ones with the lobes knocked off from some nimd-rod idling them too low....Monday, ones going to the saw! :roll:
 

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