This is so true. My Mopar 440 was very happy at 15 BTDC initial with 35 total. The 396 in my '55 Chevy likes 25 BTDC! Crazy, I never ran that much before, but that's what it wants so....
Timing for 350 Chevy SB
- Thread starter Robert
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Robert
Banned
Hi Guys, Update on 5-22-14:
Discovered the timing was already at 4 degrees BTDC - - I could not get the timing further than 8 degrees BTDC because the guy who owned the T Bucket before me installed fancy braided PCV hose and stuff that blocked the rotation of the distributor.
So I settled at 8 BTDC for now.
Flushed the cooling system, took the radiator out and had Brown radiator shop do a power flush (Flashlight inside showed the cores were not mineralized, looked clean).
Radiator was a nice brass 4 core, cannot get anymore cores than that.
The radiator shop guy said aluminum radiators don't cool as well as the old brass, brass cores are much thinner and dissipate heat better.
That's not what I'd been hearing about aluminum radiators ???
Replaced thermostat.
Installed Redline water wetter, put in new 50-50 antifreeze and distilled water.
Hand built an aluminum shroud for the 16 inch elec. fan to radiator.
Took it out on the road - same overheating problem.
If you drive it around at 30 mph, no more than 40 mph (letting the engine just idle basically), no more than about 1,500 RPM - - it runs about 195 degrees F.
If you put it on the freeway at 60 mph, or you run it above 50 mph, or you accelerate hard a few times, the engine gets hot, like above 220 F to 230 F, starts pinging, smell burning smells.
I can say it did not blow out coolant though (I have an overflow tank). After the hot session I checked the radiator levels and very little water could be added.
I'm thinking now of installing a BM tranmsmission cooler, 14,400 BTU model to take heat load off the tranny that is now going into the bottom of the radiator.
Is it possible for me to just route the tranny hoses straight into and through the cooler and totally bypass the radiator ? Is that safe for the tranny ?
Thanks,
Discovered the timing was already at 4 degrees BTDC - - I could not get the timing further than 8 degrees BTDC because the guy who owned the T Bucket before me installed fancy braided PCV hose and stuff that blocked the rotation of the distributor.
So I settled at 8 BTDC for now.
Flushed the cooling system, took the radiator out and had Brown radiator shop do a power flush (Flashlight inside showed the cores were not mineralized, looked clean).
Radiator was a nice brass 4 core, cannot get anymore cores than that.
The radiator shop guy said aluminum radiators don't cool as well as the old brass, brass cores are much thinner and dissipate heat better.
That's not what I'd been hearing about aluminum radiators ???
Replaced thermostat.
Installed Redline water wetter, put in new 50-50 antifreeze and distilled water.
Hand built an aluminum shroud for the 16 inch elec. fan to radiator.
Took it out on the road - same overheating problem.
If you drive it around at 30 mph, no more than 40 mph (letting the engine just idle basically), no more than about 1,500 RPM - - it runs about 195 degrees F.
If you put it on the freeway at 60 mph, or you run it above 50 mph, or you accelerate hard a few times, the engine gets hot, like above 220 F to 230 F, starts pinging, smell burning smells.
I can say it did not blow out coolant though (I have an overflow tank). After the hot session I checked the radiator levels and very little water could be added.
I'm thinking now of installing a BM tranmsmission cooler, 14,400 BTU model to take heat load off the tranny that is now going into the bottom of the radiator.
Is it possible for me to just route the tranny hoses straight into and through the cooler and totally bypass the radiator ? Is that safe for the tranny ?
Thanks,
Check the lower rad hose. If it is soft or lacks the internal wire support, it can collapse under higher than idle rpm.
I did not see where you were able to verify total timing adv.
You may be dealing with a blown head gasket. I have not used them, but I have heard there is a litmus strip you can dip in your coolant and it will show if you have exhaust gas in your coolant, thus a head gasket leak.
good luck,
I did not see where you were able to verify total timing adv.
You may be dealing with a blown head gasket. I have not used them, but I have heard there is a litmus strip you can dip in your coolant and it will show if you have exhaust gas in your coolant, thus a head gasket leak.
good luck,
Sure sounds like timing. 8 initial is not much, but we need to know speed and vacuum advances. My SBC crate motor idles at 35 and cruises at 45 total.
I think tranny coolers are a waste of money for most of us. I just loop the tranny line back to itself and it runs at 200F all day. And that's with a B&M 2800 stall torque converter.
I think tranny coolers are a waste of money for most of us. I just loop the tranny line back to itself and it runs at 200F all day. And that's with a B&M 2800 stall torque converter.
Robert
Banned
Update:
Bought a more accurate infra-red laser thermometer which you point the tracking laser at what you want to measure.
With engine fully warm (hot) to where Stewart Warner analog water temp gauge is showing close to 240 F - - -
Highest temperature measured at the top of the radiator on inlet side (hot coolant coming in) - - 190 to 195F
Average temps all around radiator: 150F to 170F
Water outlet on engine with thermostat underneath - - 155F
Average temp of cast alum body of tranny all around: 160F to 170F - - one tiny spot at 200F
Still 8 BTDC,
premium fuel
But I SWEAR I hear pinging when engine is fully warm and I accelerate modestly fast.
So much wind noise due to too short windshield have to duck down to listen for pinging.
Guess I'm gonna have to get a mechanic with a diagnostic computer system to run a total timing test at different RPM's, the little tab next to my harmonic balancer only goes up to 16 . . .
Bought a more accurate infra-red laser thermometer which you point the tracking laser at what you want to measure.
With engine fully warm (hot) to where Stewart Warner analog water temp gauge is showing close to 240 F - - -
Highest temperature measured at the top of the radiator on inlet side (hot coolant coming in) - - 190 to 195F
Average temps all around radiator: 150F to 170F
Water outlet on engine with thermostat underneath - - 155F
Average temp of cast alum body of tranny all around: 160F to 170F - - one tiny spot at 200F
Still 8 BTDC,
premium fuel
But I SWEAR I hear pinging when engine is fully warm and I accelerate modestly fast.
So much wind noise due to too short windshield have to duck down to listen for pinging.
Guess I'm gonna have to get a mechanic with a diagnostic computer system to run a total timing test at different RPM's, the little tab next to my harmonic balancer only goes up to 16 . . .
Screaming Metal
Active Member
Whoa Nelly! Don't go and buy a Trans cooler just yet! Theres a few other things we gotta know. The guys have asked you some good questions that will lead you to the road of recovery!
1. Did this problem just start? And is this motor a new build?
2. Does your motor get up to 230-240 mark really fast? If so, thats a sign of a leaking head gasket or a crack.
2.a.- Theres a kit you can buy at either O'Reillys or Napa that will confirm your getting combustion gasses into your cooling system. Less than $50....
3. Make sure your not sucking your bottom hose shut, as you were asked....if its a smooth hose, does it have a spring in it?
4. Make sure your harmonic balancer is correct, like its truely marking TDC. Then, check your timing. And check for vacuum leaks.
5. Are you loosing water from the weep hole on your waterpump? Make sure your waterpump is in good working order and turning in the correct direction.
If you don't understand any of these questions or their implications, take your car to the local car club or speed shop for help with diagnosis....
1. Did this problem just start? And is this motor a new build?
2. Does your motor get up to 230-240 mark really fast? If so, thats a sign of a leaking head gasket or a crack.
2.a.- Theres a kit you can buy at either O'Reillys or Napa that will confirm your getting combustion gasses into your cooling system. Less than $50....
3. Make sure your not sucking your bottom hose shut, as you were asked....if its a smooth hose, does it have a spring in it?
4. Make sure your harmonic balancer is correct, like its truely marking TDC. Then, check your timing. And check for vacuum leaks.
5. Are you loosing water from the weep hole on your waterpump? Make sure your waterpump is in good working order and turning in the correct direction.
If you don't understand any of these questions or their implications, take your car to the local car club or speed shop for help with diagnosis....
Screaming Metal
Active Member
If your blocked from turning the distributor, move your firing order by 1 tower on the distributor cap, and comfirm your firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Now, take out the distributor hold-down bolt and clamp, pick up the distributor housing and mover the rotor so its pointing to #1 tower, and retime. Once your timing is set, you should see a notable diff. in the motor laboring and the heat being generated....
choppedtop
Well-Known Member
Ok, I must be missing something here. If all the reading taken with the infrared thermometer never shows over 200 degrees, wouldn't that indicate the analog SW gauge was giving false readings? I just went through the same thing, except my problem was to cool.
Lee
Lee
Before you go throwing money at it, with no target, disconnect the vacuum advance. Sorry if I missed, whether it has one or not. If you will confirm whether you have checked any of the suggestions, we can delete them from the list and use logic to solve the problem. You can buy an adjustable timing light which will tell you advance at rpm plus total advance. On the cheap side you can buy a timing tape, which will not last, but will give you your advance numbers with the standard timing light.
Keeper
Active Member
Robert
Banned
Screaming Metal:
1) Bought the T Bucket out of state. It's an old one. Seller did not mention anything about overheating issues. Motor is an old 350 SB.
2) No, it takes at least 7 to 10 min warm up from dead cold to get the elec. fan to kick in at 190 degrees F.
2a) Yes, that test strip kit is $30, might get one soon.
3) Bottom hose and top hose is 1.5 inch or better magnacool stainless steel like coil, rubber only at end fittings.
4) Hmmm, don't know how to do that. Something about make sure piston #1 is TDC . . . .
5) No water loss from any weep hole on pump.
Turning direction of water pump ? That's an interesting one, but seems it can only go in one direction.
I guess I need to disconnect lower hose at both ends same time I pull water pump and take off backing to inspect vanes. Need to source a new gasket for back plate of water pump though.
Rotate the firing order around on the 'strib. That's a clever idea.
Yeah Chopped top, the analog guage is obviously way off - - but I do get burning smell and I think pinging when I drive it over say 50, or I gas it a few times.
If I stay at 30 to 35 mph (idling practically) it stays about 190 F on the Stewart Warner analog gauge.
1) Bought the T Bucket out of state. It's an old one. Seller did not mention anything about overheating issues. Motor is an old 350 SB.
2) No, it takes at least 7 to 10 min warm up from dead cold to get the elec. fan to kick in at 190 degrees F.
2a) Yes, that test strip kit is $30, might get one soon.
3) Bottom hose and top hose is 1.5 inch or better magnacool stainless steel like coil, rubber only at end fittings.
4) Hmmm, don't know how to do that. Something about make sure piston #1 is TDC . . . .
5) No water loss from any weep hole on pump.
Turning direction of water pump ? That's an interesting one, but seems it can only go in one direction.
I guess I need to disconnect lower hose at both ends same time I pull water pump and take off backing to inspect vanes. Need to source a new gasket for back plate of water pump though.
Rotate the firing order around on the 'strib. That's a clever idea.
Yeah Chopped top, the analog guage is obviously way off - - but I do get burning smell and I think pinging when I drive it over say 50, or I gas it a few times.
If I stay at 30 to 35 mph (idling practically) it stays about 190 F on the Stewart Warner analog gauge.
Screaming Metal
Active Member
OK, they are right, your gauge is way off. Does the radiator boil over? Steam spitting? If not, your not in too much danger. And the pinging is a clue. The history of the car for you, is unknown. If the owner didn't let you know of this problem....well, its now your problem.
The car runs, and it doesn't heat up fast. That is a good sign.
I would suggest that you retime the motor. and just for the fun of it, set it at 12 to 14. Usually, this is what the chevy motors like....does it seem low on power?
With what you told us, the lower hose isn't collasping. Radiator is good and clean. Be sure the thermostat is installed so the spring in toward the motor and the cone is pointed toward the hose going to the radiator.
Do you know if this car motor has a performance cam in it? The CR? How much overbore was the last rebuild, if any? Was the block pressure tested? If the fella you bought it from didn't let you know about the overheating issue, chances are you can't trust the info I was just asking for.
Anyway, it sounds like the motor is just possibly running way warm because of the low timing, along with the faulty gauge.
If your not mechanically inclined enough to find TDC, so you can check your harmonic balancer for being accurate, I would suggest taking her to a speed shop and letting them time it. You don't even know if the motor has a aftermarket cam, if its been set straight up or is degreed in.
But, if you feel froggish, look up the tech article that Potvin Guy wrote, about setting your timing, good article!
The car runs, and it doesn't heat up fast. That is a good sign.
I would suggest that you retime the motor. and just for the fun of it, set it at 12 to 14. Usually, this is what the chevy motors like....does it seem low on power?
With what you told us, the lower hose isn't collasping. Radiator is good and clean. Be sure the thermostat is installed so the spring in toward the motor and the cone is pointed toward the hose going to the radiator.
Do you know if this car motor has a performance cam in it? The CR? How much overbore was the last rebuild, if any? Was the block pressure tested? If the fella you bought it from didn't let you know about the overheating issue, chances are you can't trust the info I was just asking for.
Anyway, it sounds like the motor is just possibly running way warm because of the low timing, along with the faulty gauge.
If your not mechanically inclined enough to find TDC, so you can check your harmonic balancer for being accurate, I would suggest taking her to a speed shop and letting them time it. You don't even know if the motor has a aftermarket cam, if its been set straight up or is degreed in.
But, if you feel froggish, look up the tech article that Potvin Guy wrote, about setting your timing, good article!
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Screaming Metal
Active Member
Usually the waterpump rotation thing is if you get a std pump on a surpentine setup or vice-versa. I've seen it happen before.
TriodeLuvr
Member
That would seem to indicate that the gauge is OK. Does it agree reasonably well with the thermostat? Other than that, I've seen two things cause the problem you've described: water pump (defective impeller) and head gasket. It's also been my experience that the latter doesn't always affect the time it takes to overheat, and that it may not show up much at lower RPM or cylinder pressures. I would take Screaming Metal's advice on the test kit. You can probably check #1 TDC with a bent piece of coat hanger wire. Remove the plug, turn the motor so the timing mark shows TDC, and touch the wire (or a small screwdriver) to the piston. Make sure it moves down when you turn the crank in either direction away from the mark. This test doesn't need to be perfect; it's very unlikely that a small timing error will cause the severity of symptoms you're describing. I wouldn't drive this car much until you have the problem figured out. Burning smells and pinging mean serious damage could be seconds away.
Jack
Great reply. Many of the suggestions are now eliminated. If you can get the valve rattle before the engine seems to overheat, it can be an indication of too much total timing or too much at too low of an rpm. This can also be the result of a lean engine, jetted too lean or vacuum leak. Buy a timing tape. You will need to know the diameter of your balancer. If you want to try and make it last longer than a month, super glue the ends down. If you get a tape on there, holler and we will get your total advance checked.
Screaming Metal
Active Member
I Agree with Triodeluvr and RR.
Since we know what its doing now, Get a test kit. Its always good for something you don't know the history of. That would eliminate the head gasket leak or a crack somethere.
Timing Tape....There are seveal cheap kits. I would suggest getting a cheap one since it'll come off in no time if not properly applied. Get close to TDC, and mark it on the tape with a silver marker. I would now pull the distributor cap and just lay it to the side. Grab your rotor button and twist it. The rotor should move one way,you should see these little spring stretch out and when you release it, it should return to the original position. This is your centrifical advance.
If you have a hand held held vacuum pump(Like the ones that help you bleed your brakes), hook it up to the hose that hooks to the distributor, operate the pump a few strokes, you should see the inside of the distributor turn slightly. This is your vacuum advance. Both the Centr. and Vac. advance should work smoothly. If not make it so they do. If you see alot of dark crap down toward the bottom with rust, I would get a rebuild distr. (for a piece of mind, since you don't know how the car has been treated) since they are dirt cheap for the SBC motors.
With your tape on, and your newly marked TDC, you should be able to time her and see Exactly what you have. Shoot for 12 to 14 initial. I'm making this kinda simple for you since I don't know your tuning skills. As you slowly rev the motor you should see the timing change on the tape with the timing light shown at it.
Hopefully, just the timing is too low causing the motor to heat up....we'll be here to help you out, just take your time and be safe. Keep your timing light out of the rotating pieces/parts....
Since we know what its doing now, Get a test kit. Its always good for something you don't know the history of. That would eliminate the head gasket leak or a crack somethere.
Timing Tape....There are seveal cheap kits. I would suggest getting a cheap one since it'll come off in no time if not properly applied. Get close to TDC, and mark it on the tape with a silver marker. I would now pull the distributor cap and just lay it to the side. Grab your rotor button and twist it. The rotor should move one way,you should see these little spring stretch out and when you release it, it should return to the original position. This is your centrifical advance.
If you have a hand held held vacuum pump(Like the ones that help you bleed your brakes), hook it up to the hose that hooks to the distributor, operate the pump a few strokes, you should see the inside of the distributor turn slightly. This is your vacuum advance. Both the Centr. and Vac. advance should work smoothly. If not make it so they do. If you see alot of dark crap down toward the bottom with rust, I would get a rebuild distr. (for a piece of mind, since you don't know how the car has been treated) since they are dirt cheap for the SBC motors.
With your tape on, and your newly marked TDC, you should be able to time her and see Exactly what you have. Shoot for 12 to 14 initial. I'm making this kinda simple for you since I don't know your tuning skills. As you slowly rev the motor you should see the timing change on the tape with the timing light shown at it.
Hopefully, just the timing is too low causing the motor to heat up....we'll be here to help you out, just take your time and be safe. Keep your timing light out of the rotating pieces/parts....
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Robert
Banned
Screaming (reply):
Had radiator boil over (overflow tank only once) I noticed after stopping like a week ago, since then no boil over - - and no coolant loss, checking when everything cool.
I will set timing to 12 BTDC and see how it runs, but I'll have to move all the spark plug wires around 1 notch as you detailed.
Thermo is installed correctly.
Seller had zero info on the motor internally.
Pulled 2 sp plugs last night and none were white - - both looked a bit lighter tan color than I want.
Prefer one shade darker tan color.
Yep, last time I checked timing I used an old cotton T shirt to keep the rubber sp plug lead off the headers, rag caught fire from headers alone, had a lil rain dance session there.
Robert
Banned
OK, no timing tapes in my town among 4 auto parts stores - - had to measure circum. of HB at 25.125 " and create my own and glue it on.
Distributor is an MSD 8360, MSD coil also.
Appears the previous owner really had the 'strib cap messed up.
Discovered the 2 locking "grabbers" were not seating where they were suppossed to.
I had to change all the spark plug leads on the cap around to get it where cap tab would seat in alum. 'strib properly and the 2 locking tabs in their proper places - - plus allow for farther than 8 deg. BTDC timing.
As it turned out, you cannot pull the strib out of the engine and turn the gears a hair and reseat.
There is a slot that must match up , either just right - - - or 180 deg off.
Also, using a coat hanger to check TDC not advised. I used a thick copper wire and it got caught in piston top or valve and smashed flat. coat hanger wire might damage something.
TDC checks out on harmonic with piston all the way out in #1.
Set timing to 12 deg. BTDC with vacuum hoses plugged (750 RPM).
At 2800 RPM on tach with vacuum hoses plugged, timing read 63 deg BTDC.
At 2900 RM on tach with vacuum hoses connected, got estimate of 90 to 100 deg BTDC (way off my chart).
I did pull the little top in the strib and check mechanical weights and such are smooth and moving OK.
Used suction of my mouth on hose to move 'strib vacuum advance OK.
Tommorrow will test drive again and check temps.
Distributor is an MSD 8360, MSD coil also.
Appears the previous owner really had the 'strib cap messed up.
Discovered the 2 locking "grabbers" were not seating where they were suppossed to.
I had to change all the spark plug leads on the cap around to get it where cap tab would seat in alum. 'strib properly and the 2 locking tabs in their proper places - - plus allow for farther than 8 deg. BTDC timing.
As it turned out, you cannot pull the strib out of the engine and turn the gears a hair and reseat.
There is a slot that must match up , either just right - - - or 180 deg off.
Also, using a coat hanger to check TDC not advised. I used a thick copper wire and it got caught in piston top or valve and smashed flat. coat hanger wire might damage something.
TDC checks out on harmonic with piston all the way out in #1.
Set timing to 12 deg. BTDC with vacuum hoses plugged (750 RPM).
At 2800 RPM on tach with vacuum hoses plugged, timing read 63 deg BTDC.
At 2900 RM on tach with vacuum hoses connected, got estimate of 90 to 100 deg BTDC (way off my chart).
I did pull the little top in the strib and check mechanical weights and such are smooth and moving OK.
Used suction of my mouth on hose to move 'strib vacuum advance OK.
Tommorrow will test drive again and check temps.
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