fluidfloyd
Active Member
RPM said:
Scratch Built Wishbones
- Thread starter RexRod
- Start date
fluidfloyd
Active Member
LumenAl said:
LumenAl,
Me Too!
fluidfloyd;30342][quote=RPM said:
They have only had this machine about 6 months, so they might be wrong. They tell me it will cut though 6" plate. I have seen some of the stuff it will do and it is amazing. They etch 1/8" aluminum with it and it only cuts 1/2 way thru leaving just letters for like a control panel plate.
It would take a lot of cutting and welding no matter how these are made. I have to wonder how bad it would all warp. Lots of tacking in a fixture?
Todd,
I think I know what you're saying. One of my earliest ideas was to run two straight tubes, one fish-mouth cut to receive the other at the small end, and then simply fill the spaces on the outer sides with sheet. The two tubes form a long, straight sided triangle. Is that what you where thinking also?.
David
I think I know what you're saying. One of my earliest ideas was to run two straight tubes, one fish-mouth cut to receive the other at the small end, and then simply fill the spaces on the outer sides with sheet. The two tubes form a long, straight sided triangle. Is that what you where thinking also?.
David
RPM;30347][quote=fluidfloyd said:
Ron,
The warping problem you mention above is the reason I chose to go with the idea of forming two halves with the welds on the center crown of the bends. I thought about it and felt the welding of the split tube will be tough to do, and very time consuming. By welding on the crown of the outer radius, you get the mechanical advantage of the radius to help hold stuff in place. My center web will also help keep stuff straight. No need to worry about warping on the sides, no welding there. It's also, I think (not really an expert here), going to be easier to smooth off later to make it look good. I also felt that grinding down the welds on the sides of the split tube idea to make it look really flat and nice, is, well, in my opinion, not going to be easy.
I spent a weekend with Ron Covel, and learned that when you're welding on a thin body panel, it's always better and easier to place the weld at the crown of a bend. He showed us that welding on the flats opens big cans of hurt. I'm hoping/betting this bit of wisdom I picked up from him will apply to my project.
If I sounded too authoritative, please know this is just my opinion and in know way do I know what I'm really doing. :hooray:
But I'm trying though!!!!!!David
Here is a quick post with some drawings I made of possible front and rear brackets. I'm not a CAD wizard like GAB, but you can at least see what I'm thinking about. I show them with a little bar hanging off.
Possible Front Bracket:
Possible Rear Bracket with axle bracket:
I think I captured the spirit of the front style I wanted, but took some creative license with the rear and beefed it up a bit (more like a lot!). Nothing is in stone yet.
Both brackets will be machined from solid billet steel. 1018 most likely. The front bracket is also a tad heavier than the 32. Remember, I don't have anything but photos to go by, so go easy on me.
More updates when I get closer. Take care,
David
Possible Front Bracket:
Possible Rear Bracket with axle bracket:
I think I captured the spirit of the front style I wanted, but took some creative license with the rear and beefed it up a bit (more like a lot!). Nothing is in stone yet.
Both brackets will be machined from solid billet steel. 1018 most likely. The front bracket is also a tad heavier than the 32. Remember, I don't have anything but photos to go by, so go easy on me.
More updates when I get closer. Take care,
David
LumenAl
Member
RexRod said:
I was thinking about what would happen if you machined the rods from billet steel? No welding to deal with... Now for the record here... I'm not a machinist, nor a welder, I'm just thinking out loud and I'm sure someone will jump in and show me the errors of my thoughts!
LumenAl said:I was thinking about what would happen if you machined the rods from billet steel... no welding to deal with... no for the record here... I'm not a machinist, nor a welder, I'm just thinking out loud and I'm sure someone will jump in and show me the errors of my thoughts!
I actually calculated that you could machine them out of billet aluminum and they would be about as heavy as the tubular steel ones. Maybe a tad heavier. Interesting idea though...... I'd have to do some more calculations to see how they would compare in strength. I could simply use the formulas I posted in the Tech section!
David
david...keep in mind the rear axle mount plates are going to be at an angle to the center line of the axle. the hole in the plates will be an oval.
i see what you are trying to do here and think it would be a great idea if it could be produced inexpensively enough to market. if you are building for just your own use, your taking the long way around the barn here. a pair of stock model A front 'bones could donate the clevis'. then you have a forging to work with. 3 to 4 hours with a grinder.files and sand paper will net you two great looking pieces with all the curves and hiccups the stock one have.
as for the back ones, you have a great design. the '35-'36 rear bones are at premium prices right now, but here again, the stock pieces could be cleaned and detailed for use. one advantage you would have in buying a pair of these is the fact you're not using the spring mount. a tip here for those thinking of using these bones....check the bore for the spring shackle....they are often wore egg shaped. jmo
Al...the problem with fabing these from solid stock would be the weight. on these light cars we want to keep the unsprung weight down to a minimum. the idea of alumiumn rod is intreguing though.
Ron
i see what you are trying to do here and think it would be a great idea if it could be produced inexpensively enough to market. if you are building for just your own use, your taking the long way around the barn here. a pair of stock model A front 'bones could donate the clevis'. then you have a forging to work with. 3 to 4 hours with a grinder.files and sand paper will net you two great looking pieces with all the curves and hiccups the stock one have.
as for the back ones, you have a great design. the '35-'36 rear bones are at premium prices right now, but here again, the stock pieces could be cleaned and detailed for use. one advantage you would have in buying a pair of these is the fact you're not using the spring mount. a tip here for those thinking of using these bones....check the bore for the spring shackle....they are often wore egg shaped. jmo
Al...the problem with fabing these from solid stock would be the weight. on these light cars we want to keep the unsprung weight down to a minimum. the idea of alumiumn rod is intreguing though.
Ron
Hi Al,
I wouldn't consider making them out of solid steel for the reasons Ron gave, way too heavy, even with the holes you propose. Keep thinking about this though. I like your ideas.
Hi Ron,
I know you're only trying to help me by simplifying my task here, but the point of this exercise is to make them from scratch. Besides, the Model A front brackets are way too light in my opinion (my preference, so don't take it personally), and the 40's front brackets are way too heavy looking to me. That's why I chose the look of the 32. If you compare the Model A to the 32 (and 33-34?), you will notice the eyelets on the 32 clevises are thicker and a little larger in diameter. The body and eyelet arms of the front brackets are also a bit heavier. I modeled mine even slightly heavier. It would absolutely kill me if I hurt anyone. Remember, I'm the scaredy cat. Just for comparison, here are two photos. The first is the 32 front bracket and the second is the Model A. You can clearly see the 32 is tougher:
32
Model A
Now the center hole of the rear bracket would have to be massaged when I figure out what angle I'll place my bones relative the the center line of the axle. That's the problem with a full wrap bracket. Maybe I should consider using a half wrap?
I thought about including a spring perch with my rear bracket, but I feel it would limit me with my project. I'm still not sure if I'll run a rear leaf spring. Now, if I where to ever mass produce these things (that would be so super cool!), I could offer two styles. A rear bracket incorporating a spring perch could be an option for those who wanted it.
To mass produce these parts would require some serious tooling. The problem with my designs so far, is they are time consuming to make. This is almost entirely due to the shapes and look I'm after.
If I where to consider in the future making something like this, I would first carefully build some die sets here in my space to have the front and rear brackets dropped forged. Like you said above, a forging would be the best way to go. I could rough cut the shapes out of plate, then have the forge drop on them a half dozen times to bring in the look I want. Then the final machining on the brackets would be minimal. The biggest expense getting started in forging is the die sets, and I can save a ton on that by making them myself. I would only be out some material costs for the dies, some electricity and a few cutting tools.
To mass produce the arms would require a super large press brake like GAB mentioned earlier, or a press that is single purpose. I would start by building a single purpose press that makes the arms in two steps. I know how I would form the arms in such a way as to leave only one long weld seam on one edge. You could form an arm in a couple of minutes. Plus, having only one weld seam would cut down the welding time even more. The arms are by far the easiest things to mass produce, but like the forging dies, only after you build the tooling to do it.
BY FAR, the funnest thing in the world to do is learn new things, and figure out solutions to problems! Thanks for the input everyone. Take care,
David
I wouldn't consider making them out of solid steel for the reasons Ron gave, way too heavy, even with the holes you propose. Keep thinking about this though. I like your ideas.
Hi Ron,
I know you're only trying to help me by simplifying my task here, but the point of this exercise is to make them from scratch. Besides, the Model A front brackets are way too light in my opinion (my preference, so don't take it personally), and the 40's front brackets are way too heavy looking to me. That's why I chose the look of the 32. If you compare the Model A to the 32 (and 33-34?), you will notice the eyelets on the 32 clevises are thicker and a little larger in diameter. The body and eyelet arms of the front brackets are also a bit heavier. I modeled mine even slightly heavier. It would absolutely kill me if I hurt anyone. Remember, I'm the scaredy cat. Just for comparison, here are two photos. The first is the 32 front bracket and the second is the Model A. You can clearly see the 32 is tougher:
32
Model A
Now the center hole of the rear bracket would have to be massaged when I figure out what angle I'll place my bones relative the the center line of the axle. That's the problem with a full wrap bracket. Maybe I should consider using a half wrap?
I thought about including a spring perch with my rear bracket, but I feel it would limit me with my project. I'm still not sure if I'll run a rear leaf spring. Now, if I where to ever mass produce these things (that would be so super cool!), I could offer two styles. A rear bracket incorporating a spring perch could be an option for those who wanted it.
To mass produce these parts would require some serious tooling. The problem with my designs so far, is they are time consuming to make. This is almost entirely due to the shapes and look I'm after.
If I where to consider in the future making something like this, I would first carefully build some die sets here in my space to have the front and rear brackets dropped forged. Like you said above, a forging would be the best way to go. I could rough cut the shapes out of plate, then have the forge drop on them a half dozen times to bring in the look I want. Then the final machining on the brackets would be minimal. The biggest expense getting started in forging is the die sets, and I can save a ton on that by making them myself. I would only be out some material costs for the dies, some electricity and a few cutting tools.
To mass produce the arms would require a super large press brake like GAB mentioned earlier, or a press that is single purpose. I would start by building a single purpose press that makes the arms in two steps. I know how I would form the arms in such a way as to leave only one long weld seam on one edge. You could form an arm in a couple of minutes. Plus, having only one weld seam would cut down the welding time even more. The arms are by far the easiest things to mass produce, but like the forging dies, only after you build the tooling to do it.
BY FAR, the funnest thing in the world to do is learn new things, and figure out solutions to problems! Thanks for the input everyone. Take care,
David
fluidfloyd
Active Member
RexRod said:
fluidfloyd;30480][quote=RexRod said:
George,
Your thoughts will always be of interest to me. I feel honored you replied.
I didn't know that about aluminum, but it makes perfect sense. You do see aluminum being used for roll bar arms and torsion bar arms though, especially on race cars. I've built and splined a bunch of them over the years.
As far as CAD goes, I'm looking into options now. I think GAB uses "Designer" by the people who do "Auto Cad." Not 100% sure about that. He told me once, but I can't remember now. My challenge is I don't use Windows. I could I guess, but I prefer to use Linux. I've had Linux on my desktop since 96. So I'm on the hunt for an easy to use 3-D modeling tool that runs in Linux. I've never been a big fan of CAD through the years only because I'm very comfortable with seeing stuff in my head. I've got a reputation of being able to build a prototype before the engineer can even get it entered into the program. :lol:
My front and rear brackets at the moment are going to be the most time consuming. Where the power of a CAD tool comes in is when you use a CNC. GREATLY reduces the amount of time spent to program the machine. I was lucky to find a small one a few years ago, so I'm feeling the need to learn a good CAD tool. It's not much to look at, but it's paid for and even works!
I figure I'll drag my coolant tank over to the machine, tape some plastic damns to catch most of the spill, and let the machine whittle away at it while flooding the cutting tool.
I've built all kinds of cool stuff so far with this little machine. My last project was a set of adjustable caster/camber plates of my own design:
I even do the anodizing in my own space. Super small scale though.
Can you tell I'm trying to impress you? I have no shame.
Take care,
David
old round fart
Well-Known Member
If you are tooling up, can you press a top and bottom and have two welds to worry about?
old round fart said:
I'm not tooling up for anything yet. So far I'm just building a set for myself. If I do make tools to form the arms, they will only have one open seam. At least that's how I imagine it. In the way I'm going to make mine now by hand, I'll still only have two welds, one on the top and one on the bottom of the arms, with a center web for added strength.
David
david...please don't think i'm trying to talk you out of your quest. far from it, i'm very interested in this project. have even considered it myself, just not educated enough to pull it off.anything i can help with please let me know.
about the half brackets for the rear end....you want these mounts to go all the way around the housing. most ford housings are 10g. some gm's are 11g.with mat'l that thin it's easy to overheat as you are wielding causing warpage. 360 brackets will even the heat out all the way around and thus reducing the chance of warpage. the bracket could be fabbed in 2 pieces with the joints vertically spaced. again, jmo.
Ron
about the half brackets for the rear end....you want these mounts to go all the way around the housing. most ford housings are 10g. some gm's are 11g.with mat'l that thin it's easy to overheat as you are wielding causing warpage. 360 brackets will even the heat out all the way around and thus reducing the chance of warpage. the bracket could be fabbed in 2 pieces with the joints vertically spaced. again, jmo.
Ron
fluidfloyd
Active Member
RexRod,
George,
You do see aluminum being used for roll bar arms and torsion bar arms though, especially on race cars. I've built and splined a bunch of them over the years.
David,
You are correct in the use of aluminum in torsion bar and anti roll bar arms. Most of the time they are short as in 6-18" long. When used as an anti roll bar they are a seperate function and are not actually supporting the chassis. They only resist body roll. When used as a torsion arm they usually are again a seperate component and are used only as a spring. When used in that application the left torsion bar and arm are usually seperate from the right arm. Once you tie them together they then become an anti roll bars.
If you were to build long radius rods out of aluminum and mount them as most tbuckees do then you have a very stiff axle resisting any bending forces from the aluminum arms as the car tries to take body roll.
Now about aluminum roll bars, well I know people do it. In the old days Doug Nash (Doug Nash 5 Speeds) built a Bronco drag dracer and put an all aluminum chassis and cage in it. NHRA quickly outlawed that program. I don't know of any racing organization that allows that but I'm sure folks do it anyway. Aluminum tube just has no impact resistance.
A good rule of thumb for aluminum versuis steel:
Aluminum is 1/3 as stiff as teel.
Aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel.
It takes 3 times the amount of aluminum to do the same work as steel.
This doesn't mean aluminum is bad, it just means you have to use it with in it's design limits.
I hope this anwsers anyones questions about the two materials.
Now, about you're "home" shop. Sounds to me you can do about anything you want. I assume those blue aluminum parts are a upper strut mounting assembly and it is fully adjustable. You must be either a road or drag racer. Nice looking. And you do in house anodizing. Wow! Nice work David. Keep it up.
George
George,
You do see aluminum being used for roll bar arms and torsion bar arms though, especially on race cars. I've built and splined a bunch of them over the years.
David,
You are correct in the use of aluminum in torsion bar and anti roll bar arms. Most of the time they are short as in 6-18" long. When used as an anti roll bar they are a seperate function and are not actually supporting the chassis. They only resist body roll. When used as a torsion arm they usually are again a seperate component and are used only as a spring. When used in that application the left torsion bar and arm are usually seperate from the right arm. Once you tie them together they then become an anti roll bars.
If you were to build long radius rods out of aluminum and mount them as most tbuckees do then you have a very stiff axle resisting any bending forces from the aluminum arms as the car tries to take body roll.
Now about aluminum roll bars, well I know people do it. In the old days Doug Nash (Doug Nash 5 Speeds) built a Bronco drag dracer and put an all aluminum chassis and cage in it. NHRA quickly outlawed that program. I don't know of any racing organization that allows that but I'm sure folks do it anyway. Aluminum tube just has no impact resistance.
A good rule of thumb for aluminum versuis steel:
Aluminum is 1/3 as stiff as teel.
Aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel.
It takes 3 times the amount of aluminum to do the same work as steel.
This doesn't mean aluminum is bad, it just means you have to use it with in it's design limits.
I hope this anwsers anyones questions about the two materials.
Now, about you're "home" shop. Sounds to me you can do about anything you want. I assume those blue aluminum parts are a upper strut mounting assembly and it is fully adjustable. You must be either a road or drag racer. Nice looking. And you do in house anodizing. Wow! Nice work David. Keep it up.
George
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