Crane Fireball 2 302H timing

[Milson904]

Guy's,

Last time I watched someone use a timing light Zepplin was on The song remains the same tour, so I really didn't retain much.

It's the same tunnel ram set up, with a crane Fireball 2 302H #114822 in a sbc 350.
I have the cam card, but can't figure out what degree to set it at?

If I know the degree at idle, and at 3000 rpm I'd be shooting for I could probably figure it out.

any help would be appreciated

Thanks,
Mike

 

[fordsbyjay]

I'm a bit confused. The motor is all built and the cam is already installed? You could set it around 10* and tune it from there. I don't know squat about sbc but on all my sbf's timing is usually around 14* initial timing. That is with no vacuum advance hooked up..

 

[Wild Mango]

Yep start with about 12deg initial set with vacuum disconnected, looking for 36 or so all in by 3000rpm. Go and find a quiet road and sneak her forward a degree at a time to40 MAX, listen carefully for the rattle of over advance when she's starting to lug and ease back if its there. The odd desultory ping when you hop on it hard is OK, sounding like a short MG burst isn't.

 

[Screaming Metal]

WHAT MANGO SAID! Now....What your cam card says, is what you want to set your cam timing at when you assemble your motor. Now, you can bump your cam timing up or down a few degrees to bring up the bottom in....its rarely done in street cars, or give it a little more top-end pull.
To use that cam card, you would need to buy a degree wheel kit, pull your timing cover, install degree wheel, pull your #1 plug, install piston stop, locate TDC, then adjust your Cam timing to what the card says. with bushings that fit into your timing gear that advance or retard your timing. There are many diff. bushings, and many diff. ways to screw up. Your cam has probably been degreed in, since they put a TR on it..
If your not into motors, its best not to mess with it....screw up potential is way on up there.There is Cam Timing, which is the valve opening events compared to degrees of crankshaft rotation. Then there is Ignition Timing, which is the spark event compared to crankshaft rotation.
Timing (ign.)is as Mango said, you want it all in by 3000. Make sure the centrifical advance works smoothly....if the weights a and pads look really dirty....you might want to spring for a performance centrificial advance kit. Comes with new springs, weight buttons, and weights.
Most motors like yours like as much advance as they can stand before you get to pinging. These days, with the gas getting crappier, you have to back down on it some, as compared to 20 or 30 years ago. Thats why I love to keep a tankfull of the green/blue av. gas at the shop.

 

[Screaming Metal]

If the car is running good, that is great. If you don't have alot of lowend grunt....thats due to the TR and the camshaft combo. You can have things a little more manageable by putting on progressive throttle linkage from Ededbrock or they have a good one at Offenhauser. You can get these thru Speedway I believe or your local speed shop.
Usually a Tunnel Ram to run good on the street, the milder the cam, the better it'll idle. If you want or need a performance cam, we usually set them up with a 'bleeddown' lifter. At idle, it'll bleed down and will make a fairly wild cam be alot more manageable, but after motor rpm comes up, the lifter pumps up and you have full lift and duration. Rhoads lifters came out with these first, but there are others that make them now, but you have to specifically ask for them....

 

[Milson904]

Thanks guy's, I'd leave the cam stuff for a real mechanic (I'm great at the take apart stage, it's the assembly that would cause a problem)

Here's where I'm at, I'm guessing it has the Fireball 2 cam (since the card is in all the reciepts) when I was working on the carbs (with your help) I noticed that the distributor was not tight as somoeone was messing with the timing. The car idles great now and I thought I'd adjust the timming with a light rather than my ear.
I only drove it around our block a couple of times as I'm questioning the suspension and steering, when I got on it a bit it hesitates so I thought I'd put a light on it and get the timing better before I start messing with the carb air fuel mixture.
Keep in mind, I'm pre-rookie stage of mechanics, you would not want me to work on your car! But I'll try on mine possibly creating work for others. When it looks too difficult, I just take it to others first.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Milson904]

I put a light on it, the mark was so far off I took it to Modified performance.
They put a light on it and said that the balance is incorrect for the car as it reads 55 degrees. The mark was around the 12:00 hour. He mentioned that it has a corvette water pump on it so he could not get to the mark.
Rather than having him tear it apart and change the balancer he did it by ear, and also adjusted the mixture on the carbs.

It's not perfect, but it's better than before.

 

[railroad]

It will be good to get a handle on the ign timing. Lotsa performance diff in right and wrong. See if you can get educated on a screw in piston stop. You will need this to find TDC, top dead center. You can use the balancer you have, but may have to fab or find a timing tab. A tab can consist of a cut piece of tin or a welding rod under the head of a bolt. You will need to put one on the engine where it can be seen with a timing light and the balance flange in the background. If you use wire, like a welding rod, use a washer on both side of the wire wrapped around the retaining bolt. Back to TDC, you remove the spark plug on the #1 cyl, do all the cylinders to make the job easier. Put the cyl stop in the #1 hole. Turn the engine gently with a bar, on the balancer bolt. When the engine stops make a temporary mark on the balancer in the area of the tab you constucted. Now turn the engine in the opposite direction, slowing and stopping with the same amount of pressure on the bar. Make another mark under the tab again. The span between the 2 marks is TDC or Zero degrees timing. Measure the diameter and circumfrence of the balancer. You should be able to find a timing tape that is marked for the size balancer you have. Clean the balancer before putting the tape on. Strategically placed super glue will help keep the tape in place. You may want to make some small reference marks on the balancer after the tape is installed. That way you can time it if the tape flies off. I am getting anxious to get this thing rumbling.
good luck,

 

[Wild Mango]

What Railroad said! You don't need a degree tape although they are nice. Measure the circumfrence of the balancer, divide by ten and you have a 36deg measurement. Apply that measurement against the direction of rotation from your TDC mark, make a mark and that is 36degBTDC.
Because the balancer/damper outer can move on the hub as the rubber in between slips, its a good idea to always check TDC before any ignition work so as you are assured of an accurate reference to work from.
Milson, when you hop on it and it hesitates a bit, thats called a flat spot. Lots of things do this, but it's a classic sign of late ignition.
BTW a few years ago I wrote a tech note on HEI tuning that applies to most other stuff too, its in the tech section on here.
Happy tinkering!!

 

[2old2fast]

It's also pretty much normal for an over-cammed , low compression engine w/a tunnel-ram

dave

 

[Milson904]

I'll take it for a another test run today, yesterday I ran into a severe case of the "Death wobble" that you all talk about so it put a damper on my trial runs. I read some threads, and this thing had over a 3/4" toe in situation, yes 3/4"
I changed it to about 1/8" toe out. Also the rod ends are questionable along with the rod itself, it's an old school bar with ends clamped on each side. I'll be ordering a new tie rod today for survival purposes.
It seems to have some decent power, I'll look into a piston stop and work to find TDC. I did some checking on the balance, a 1975 350 TYZ motor has an 8" x 1-3/4" balance, and that's what's on it.
Thanks
Mike

 

[2old2fast]

IIRC , that's in the time period when chevy relocated the timing tab on some of the 5.7 engines to "about" 12 oclock , in order to see the timing you had to look down behind the water pump [by then most all had a long pump] , that's probably why your marks are so far off. I believe if you get an aftermarket cover {goes over your damper} ,made by Proform , that will put marks in the right place. Let me do some searching & I'll try to get you a part # ... dave

 

[2old2fast]

Jeg's 778-141-726 - proform damper cover -8"

dave

 

[Screaming Metal]

Thats probably why the paperwork has never been finished....it couldn't pass the tech inspection. Hang onto all that paperwork, no matter how messy or redundant it is.
All TDC's are to be checked, I don't trust the original timing marks on any motors, unless they have a solid hub with a engraver ot file mark. Then, you can roll it close, look thru the plug hole and tell. You develop a feel for these things after awhile.
Like torqueing down bolts with sloppy holes, you know which ones are gonna strip by the feedback you get thru the handle....

Like Mango said, timing tapes are nice, but not totally needed. For the ordinary streetrod, after while, you go to a carwash, and all that tape is usually heading for the drain.

When I do a tape, I clean the balancer really good, then wirebrush it, then apply the tape lining up on the TDC mark I put on it, then a secondary mark on the hub itsself, that way, if the outter ring spins, you still have a TDC mark there for reference.
Then, I put a bunch on clear coats over it to protect it. The paper tapes suck anyway, its best to get the etched ones to install.
Fluid Damper Rocks!

 

[Milson904]

Dave, I think your correct, I just don't have the long water pump (mine is right up against the timing chain cover)
I looked at the proform damper cover, that's a great idea!
Thanks
Mike

 

[Milson904]

Metal, I'll make sure to scrib a pernament mark once I find the correct place.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[roadmonster]

Try aluminum repair tape on your damper. Cut to length for the timing you want. I have one for initial timing and one for total (though you will never see it with a light). It will NOT come off. Mine has lasted 5 years.