Up grade for frame plans

[fluidfloyd]

As long as we are on this subject, here is an idea that I picked up from an A-arm on a little teabagger race car. This allows infinite adjustment to rod ends (or tie rod ends for that matter) without disassembling the fitting from the frame mounting. It won't work on every rod end use but is handy when it can be used.

Just back off the jam nut, turn the internally threaded sleeve in or out and relock the jam nut.

GAB,

This is equally as great of an idea as the single shear design above. Great thinking. Thanks.

George

 

[fluidfloyd]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaa Sorry, I did not think about people that use tie rod ends for suspension ends, not a real good practice, as they are not very strong at keeping the ball end inside the housing during side stress, kinda like Heim ends... :welcome: and a whole lot harded to use a safety washer, just where do you put it???? :lol:

Ted,

I guess I'm missing something here on the side stress you talk about. Just what kind of side loads are you seeing in radius rods or tie rods? I just don't think a car sees that much loads when designed right. Please enlighten me. Thanks.

George

 

[GAB]

I too have a hard time believing that a tie rod end will not stand up to side forces as well as a rod end. A forged steel body and stud are going to fail before the outer shell of the rod end? What am I missing here? Even if the cap and spring did fall off, the body is captive on the stud.

As far as wearability goes, again I'd have to go with the tie rod end. More contact area on the wear surfaces, spring compensation for what wear does occur, and a sealed environment for lubrication are definite pluses. Major drawback is appearance. They just don't look as neat as rod ends.

 

[RexRod]

Alright Mr. Fancy Pants Cad Man :welcome: :lol:

I see an image in the reflection on the surface of the ball in the cutaway view of your tie rod end. I see trees, sky, maybe a car and possibly some people? Crazy! That tool of yours is over the top.

 

[Ted Brown]

As a Tie rod end, what they were designed for, there is not much of any side stress, just straight back and forth pull and push. Now, attached to the rear of a hair pin type of radius rod, they is now more than just back and forth pressure on that joint, which is called side stress, any time the car turns, what is holding the complete front end in place??? only a shackle at each end of a spring, and those two Tie rod ends... Can you now see the side stress? As that whole assembly wants to twist sideways, those ends hold a lot more pressure than you will ever know... I have repaired way too many rods with the wrong type of ends on Radius rods.. Now a 4 bar set up is totally different, only the shackles are holding the front end from moving sideways, and the straight push pull radius rods links, hold it from moving forward and back, except the amount of arc, created by the length of those links, that is why it is best to use a shackle 1/4 inch wider than the spring or the mount, as this will allow the movement of the axle back as it moves up and down. That stops that side stress, other wise, the spring will be put in a bind, the shorter the radius rod, the greater the bind. SO, with the ends of the Radius trying to get loose by pulling from the out side (not back and forth) those ends are not made real strong for forces from that direction... I want a good (grade 5 or better) through bolt with a heavy duty washer (to keep things together if failure should happen) and a good nut on the back side of a strong frame mount, holding my front end in place, Thank You, just me, yes? :welcome:

 

[Youngster]

i see what you are driving at ted. what i see here is a discussion on theory. i too have repaired many radius rods. almost everyone was because of a bad design, not failure of the end itself. a tie rod end will give thousands of miles of service in this application if it is set up correctly. where folks run into a problem is when the stud and the housing are at too great of an angle, limiting the amount of articulation. i have no doubt the stress you are concerned with is present in this type of set up, but isn't that the nature of this type of suicide design? as soon as you split the wishbone and move the attachment points out to the frame rail, you are introducing more stress into the system. in theory it's wrong, but that's not to say it can't or dosen't work.

Ron

 

[Ted Brown]

Thats for sure, I just don't use Tie rod ends for suspension ends, I would get laughed clear out of a run, and probably never get another customer again, at least by people in the know... If I can;t do it as right as I know how, I just will not do it at all, when people want me to build something that is wrong, in my opinion, and i may be wrong, I ask them to take it somewhere else.. Simple as that, just like all these tie rods out front of the axle, there is no excuse for that, just plain lazy as far as I see...
SORRY if I offend anyone, but this is how I feel about this, as I like to build a car that works as well as looks like a ROD... Speed is not necessary either, stock engines are more than needed. :lol: Just me.. I will run with anyone with any engine they like over many miles and every kind of road, and see if you can make the trip, I have driven over dirt roads with ruts and off road 10 miles in Mexico, just lookin for a private place to have a picnic, no problems... I hate problems while driving, so I will not make them while building either, as I have tried it all... Thanks for letting me rant, just how I feel about a ride that can kill sooooo quick, and life is too short as it is.. Happy Cruzin...

 

[GAB]

Hmmm? Ted, you don't consider tie rod ends suitable for suspension components? I have always been under the impression that tie rods and drag links were part of an automobiles suspension system. Somebody in Detroit sure missed the memo. :lol:

As far as using them on the rear mounting points of hairpins goes, I don't feel like it matters much whether you use tie rod ends, Heims, or urethane bushings. Hairpin radius rods are marginal at best for use in a solid axle suspension system. I'll take a 3 or 4 bar system any time. Might not be very "traditional", what ever that is supposed to mean, but they give a controlled freedom to the wheels to react to road variancies.

Here is an example of what I think amounts to a working front suspension:

Anyone, please feel free to critique it or question about it.

 

[LumenAl]

George,

You got a picture of that front end completed? I would love to see it.

 

[Ted Brown]

I am afraid I am an old school person when it comes to T Buckets, if it is too late model lookin, it misses the mark as a T for Me, if I want a 4 bar type car, I still try and keep it looking as much like a T as I can get it, other wise might as well build a late model roadster not a T with jet plane parts... Just me.. and. yes I do call tie rods part of the suspension, but that is the only place I will use them, not on radius rods, way too much stress, from every angle on those parts... PS, any straight axle, should have the tie rod behind the axle, just doesn't look good out front as far as I see it, kind of embarrassing to me... Maybe just how I was taught.
Very nice workmanship on your project. and yes the 4 bar type suspension hugs the road much better, just a big difference in looks...

 

[Youngster]

i too am a traditionalist....but cars that are built out of the box are great fodder for the inquiring mind, especially if they come from george's shop. don't you ever quit posting here GAB!!!!!!!

Ron

 

[RexRod]

i too am a traditionalist....but cars that are built out of the box are great fodder for the inquiring mind, especially if they come from george's shop. don't you ever quit posting here GAB!!!!!!!

Ron

I agree! We need to come up with some kind of award for "Best Ideas" and how to show them.

George would be a serious contender for first place, hands down.

David

 

[Youngster]

I agree! We need to come up with some kind of award for "Best Ideas" and how to show them.
.......................................................................................................................................

no need for that david...george is the man!!!!!

that is not to slight anyone here....there are some awesome T's and builders on this site!!!

Ron

 

[GAB]

WHOA! there guys. These things are not original ideas on my part, just things that I have seen over the last 50 years of fooling with this stuff. I'd give credit to the originator if I could remember who it was. CRS is in full bloom here.

I'm just the curator at my little mental museum!

The drawings are just because I like to do it and it can be a challenge some times...and it beats having to try to explain my thoughts with words when I type as poorly as I do.

Al, That is an updated pic. Nothing has been done on this thing for years. I need to get the wheels finished up so that I can get it on the ground and sent it to a new home.

 

[fluidfloyd]

WHOA! there guys. These things are not original ideas on my part, just things that I have seen over the last 50 years of fooling with this stuff. I'd give credit to the originator if I could remember who it was. CRS is in full bloom here.

I'm just the curator at my little mental museum!

George,

My understanding is that you have a great mental museum. Hope you've documented it for the future generation car builders.

Now about that little roadster...Everything about it is right! I do prefer a 4 bar every time. Of course you've probably guessed that I would use spherical rod end bearings but that's just the nature of the beast.

About you drawing models, wow! You are inspiring me to get off my backside and get back to learning Solidworks. Just need that 8th day in the week.

The Other George

 

[jmr122848]

OK, my $.02 on the hairpins/4 bar stuff. I like the look of hair pins and split bones and all, but...
if fourbars with tierod ends were good enough for Gabrowsky and Ivo then maybe they are just good enough.

 

[all-world1]

Ron, I take it that you use the cone spacers on both sides of the Heims?

This weekend I did some experimenting with a T that has a frame built from the plans I have posted in the Tech Articles here.

We swapped the bushed ends on the ends of the hair pins for heim ends. Although there didn't seem to be a problem with the bushed ends, I have always wondered if the heims wouldn't work better. As a result, we found the steering effort to be less with the heims on an unequal road surface. I don't think I would go as far as to say the ride quality was improved. At least I didn't notice any change during a 60 mile test drive.

The parts used were ordered from Speedway.

Heims...#175-0126
cone spacers...#546-4110

It should be noted here that a washer should be installed on the outside of the heim as a safty item incase of heim failure. We used a cone spacer for the washer to increase the articulation of the heim.

Ron

 

[Youngster]

yep craig...both sides.....

Ron

 

[all-world1]

The next step for me is to fabricate those 8 hairpin frame mounting brackets (4 inside, 4 outside) from Youngsters plan set. I'm kinda new to metalworking, so if someone can recommend the easiest way to cut these and get 'em identical, i'd appreciate it.

 

[GAB]

"so if someone can recommend the easiest way to cut these and get 'em identical, i'd appreciate it."

One of these:

Results are fair to middlin.