Racthet RIde

[bamabucket]

I have 4-bars on both the front and rear suspension on my bucket. All the ends are the bushing type, with 7 degree angle. The end on the forward end of the top right rear bar broke when I was driving in town at a low speed and I didn't even notice it until a driver in the next lane told me about it. A failure of one of the ends on a front bar or on any of them at highway speeds could be a problem, but I just replaced the broken end with a Speedway part and the others have been OK. I have buggy springs at both ends and no panhard bars - the springs seem to keep lateral movement controlled and the car handles well when driven conservatively, considering that it is an old school T-bucket.

 

[bobs66440]

I have 4-bars on both the front and rear suspension on my bucket. All the ends are the bushing type, with 7 degree angle. The end on the forward end of the top right rear bar broke when I was driving in town at a low speed and I didn't even notice it until a driver in the next lane told me about it. A failure of one of the ends on a front bar or on any of them at highway speeds could be a problem, but I just replaced the broken end with a Speedway part and the others have been OK. I have buggy springs at both ends and no panhard bars - the springs seem to keep lateral movement controlled and the car handles well when driven conservatively, considering that it is an old school T-bucket.

Wow! I think I would be replacing all of those. Yikes!

 

[bamabucket]

Do you mean replace all of them with new bushings of the same type or with heim joints?

 

[bobs66440]

Me personally, I like heim joints but like I said earlier I don't really have any experience with the bushed ends. But it seems to me that any one that would break under mild conditions would be suspect I'm my mind. If the other ones you have installed are of the same manufacture, I don't think that I would trust them. The ones at Speedway sells I think are forged which should be plenty strong. One reason why it may have broken is it was not installed properly or not aligned properly. I would check that out also. that's one thing that I like about the Heim joints is that you don't have to worry so much about perfect alignment because they swivel.

 

[bamabucket]

RatchetBob, the bushed 4-bar end in your picture looks like the forged type offered by Speedway. They also have a cast stainless end that is similar but has a smooth polished surface. I replaced my broken end with the stainless type and that is the type on all the ends of my front and rear 4-bars. I didn't build my bucket but have owned and driven it regularly for 12 years with no other suspension failures. However, one failure is probably one too many and bobs66440's comments have me rethink the components I have. I don't have much knowledge about any of these topics, but I believe the forged ends are likely to be stronger than the cast ones, and a good quality Heim joint may be better than either. The few 4-bar T-bucket suspensions I have seen had bushed ends, but Heims may be better. I need to replace my front axle because the configuration of the batwings results in a very low scrub line (the bottom of the lower 4-bar would hit the pavement if I had a front flat) and I may go to Heim joints in addition to a lower drop. Has anyone seen or used Heim joints on 4-bars? I don't want to jack this thread but I need schooling on this.

 

[EX JUNK]

Personally, I've never seen a heim used on a four bar. On hair pins, yes, almost always.

Jim

 

[bamabucket]

I haven't either.

 

[RatchetRob]

I assume when you say you have never seen heim ends used on four bar your meaning on T Buckets. I have been thinking alot about this and if heim ends could withstand my 750 hp late model on a four bar car with tons of movement and misalignment as the car goes thru the corner it can handle my mild street motor. If you look at all the popular websites four link kits they are all heim ends. I love buying as much as I can locally to support local businesses and my local speed shop sells all grades of heim ends from your standard to heavier duty type. So I believe I am going to use the heim ends on this build.

 

[bobs66440]

They aren't used on street applications often because they don't offer any cushion as mentioned. They are used mainly in racing applications where it doesn't matter and all you're interested in is keeping the components under precise control.

 

[bamabucket]

I haven't been able to find any 4-bar kits on the 'net that have Heim joint ends and I would very interested in knowing about their availability for consideration when I change my front end. I still have a lot to learn and continue to get as much information as I can. I did look for information about this topic on another board and although there were a few posters who used Heims in this application the majority agreed with bobs66440 comments. It looks like you have a great build going and I look forward to following it.

 

[EX JUNK]

I've been around street rods for many years and gone to many national events with thousands of cars there and have NEVER seen a heim joint on a four bar. That has got to mean something.

Jim

 

[bobs66440]

No, you're not going to see many on street rods or street cars. Its common on race cars.

Here are a few examples for race applications. 4-bar kits and heim joint kits for 4-bar setups. Again, they are rare for the street, but I see no reason why they can't be used for the street, on a T-bucket or any other car. The way I see it, if they're standard fare for the severe duty of racing, then they ought to be sufficient for street. I come from a racing background and try to combine the best of all worlds for what I build. Like I said before, I'm sure the forged ends are just fine for the street. I just prefer the heim ends. Just my opinion...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/390720284481?lpid=82
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Link-Four-link-2-link-Two-Link-Bars-Heims-Modifed-4-/270548087908
http://www.jegs.com/i/Alston-Race-Cars/064/181317/10002/-1?parentProductId=2392126
http://www.jegs.com/p/Competition-E...m-Series-Chrome-Moly-Rod-Ends/963687/10002/-1
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/40019/10002/-1?parentProductId=744003

 

[EX JUNK]

There is a difference between a 4 BAR and a 4 LINK. Pete and Jake developed the 4 bar originally for front axles and they used rod ends and still do to this day. The reason for a four bar on the front axle is so the caster does not change with the vertical movement of the axle as compared to hairpins. This is accomplished by keeping the bars parallel at all times allowing them to move as a parallelogram.
Four links are used on rear suspensions and are usually adjustable for traction in racing applications. In effect , the adjustment is creating a shorter or longer traction arm if you theoretically extend the arms forward to where they would meet.

Jim

 

[bobs66440]

There is a difference between a 4 BAR and a 4 LINK. Pete and Jake developed the 4 bar originally for front axles and they used rod ends and still do to this day. The reason for a four bar on the front axle is so the caster does not change with the vertical movement of the axle as compared to hairpins. This is accomplished by keeping the bars parallel at all times allowing them to move as a parallelogram.
Four links are used on rear suspensions and are usually adjustable for traction in racing applications. In effect , the adjustment is creating a shorter or longer traction arm if you theoretically extend the arms forward to where they would meet.

Jim

You're right. Technically "4-link" is a more common term for the adjustable rear setup for race cars. Sorry, I was using it as a general term for the upper and lower individual bar design and I posted those links just to show that heim ends can be used. In any case, I think the design theory for a 4-bar for the rear would be the same as the front (parallel bars in the rear will allow for the pinion angle to remain more constant throughout the suspension travel compared to ladder bars or hairpins) and my point was you can switch out the rod ends if you wish, if the ends are removable. I think the only modification would be if the mount is designed "double shear" you would have to use spacers on either side of of the heim because they are generally much narrower than than the forged rod ends.

 

[bobs66440]

And you may have to change the length of the bars depending how long the heim end is compared to the bushed rod end. For heims, it's recommended that it's threaded into the bar min. 1.5 times the diameter of the threaded part of the heim. So, if it's a 5/8" heim, it needs to be threaded in about 1". A 1/2" heim would be threaded in 3/4".

 

[baddawgcustoms]

Dido what jim and bob said. The 4 "bar" setup for the front always Has the top and bottom bars parallel. For the rear 4 "link" you generally want the front of your bars closer together than the rear. As you can see in Jim's setup his top angles down slightly which points toward the center of the car for a more neutral position. Pointing them up will raise the rear and shift weight to the front. Pointing them down makes the rear squat and takes weight off the front. You can mount the rear parallel but your losing the big bonus of four link. NOTHING is better than an adjustable 4 link to "point" your torque in the right direction to hook up. There needs to be ZERO lateral movement in a high torque 4 link or it does put the bars in a bind. Using a triangulated locator also like Jim is running and you HAVE zero movement. I don't think you could out horsepower Jim's design. That car is one of the most perfectly engineerd home builds I've ever seen. Not trying to stroke the mans ego but the car is simply bad ass! IMHO!

 

[EX JUNK]

Dido what jim and bob said. The 4 "bar" setup for the front always Has the top and bottom bars parallel. For the rear 4 "link" you generally want the front of your bars closer together than the rear. As you can see in Jim's setup his top angles down slightly which points toward the center of the car for a more neutral position. Pointing them up will raise the rear and shift weight to the front. Pointing them down makes the rear squat and takes weight off the front. You can mount the rear parallel but your losing the big bonus of four link. NOTHING is better than an adjustable 4 link to "point" your torque in the right direction to hook up. There needs to be ZERO lateral movement in a high torque 4 link or it does put the bars in a bind. Using a triangulated locator also like Jim is running and you HAVE zero movement. I don't think you could out horsepower Jim's design. That car is one of the most perfectly engineerd home builds I've ever seen. Not trying to stroke the mans ego but the car is simply bad ass! IMHO!

Thank you for that compliment, Dale, I appreciate it very much.

Jim

 

[bobs66440]

I don't think you could out horsepower Jim's design. That car is one of the most perfectly engineerd home builds I've ever seen. Not trying to stroke the mans ego but the car is simply bad ass! IMHO!

I agree.

 

[RatchetRob]

Okay in racing terms saying 4 bar is referring to the rear suspension. It is kind of loose term used to actually describe the four link rear setups. Mostly I would assume because if you look at dirt racing handling charts they almost always say "raise top bar" for this and "lower top bar" for this etc. So I guess I need to refer to my rear setup properly and say I am using a 4 link rear suspension. Based on EX JUNK's comments I now realize the heim joints are not used in hot rods but mostly in racing applications. How many hoods on T Buckets are out there? Not many that I can find pictures of. So this build is going to be different and I will NEVER be offended by someone saying I told you so as long as you don't get offended by me wanting to try it my way. The whole purpose of this board for me is to learn and not make too many mistakes. However this to me is not a mistake as much as it is personal preference for my car that I plan to incorporate race car themes thru out the car. I came from a heavy racing backround and have worked with Jasper Engines and Transmissions, Penske Racing, Jack Roush and Terry Labonte. I have raced NASCAR dirt late models, IMCA modfieds and Indiana Super Stocks so to say racing is in my blood would be a understatement. So I ask the questions for the purpose of learning what others are doing and why. So I appreciate very much everyones opinion, experience and help! With that I am using heim joints on the rear four link to get the look. Eventually I want a quick change rear to further that look. This is to me the most exciting part of building this car. I get to go for my look and my interpretation of what I think looks good. I truly hope I never offend anyone for not taking their advice! Thanks so much to date for the help!

 

[RatchetRob]

I haven't been able to find any 4-bar kits on the 'net that have Heim joint ends and I would very interested in knowing about their availability for consideration when I change my front end. I still have a lot to learn and continue to get as much information as I can. I did look for information about this topic on another board and although there were a few posters who used Heims in this application the majority agreed with bobs66440 comments. It looks like you have a great build going and I look forward to following it.

Sorry for the confusion as I am talking about the four link setup on the rear of my car. What did you mean by the majority agreed with bobs66440 comment? Are talking about the fact that heim ends are not used on street apps and mostly racing? Thanks for the great build comment! I am having so much fun making every bracket and choices for this car.