overheating problem

[oino]

Valve cover off revealed nothing.

Here is a pic of where the oil is on all 3 sides of the motor.
It is only here. If I look up the crack to the manifold on the front side of the motor. (my head don't fit in back.) The crack is all dry except for where I
put the top arrow there in the pic.

 

[oino]

sorry, just thinking out loud....

That fine.

I removed the 2 back spark plugs on the drivers side. Both covered in oil. I really think that manifold gasked didn't seal. Might be the jegs manifold.

 

[Screaming Metal]

Chris, is there anyway you can trailer this thing up to a automotive machine shop? And let the machinist look at the way the intake is fitting? I believe you'll probably have to get the intake squared up....or the intake surface of the head might be off.
The machinist has the tools and knowhow to see which it is. If the back 2 cylinders are sucking oil, something definitely isn't right.
Did you torque the intake down in the correct sequence? You said this is the first time since you pulled the valvecovers? Did you install the intake with the valvecovers on?

(my head don't fit in back.)
Use a inspection mirror and a flashlight....

 

[oino]

Ya I left the valve covers on. They were out of the way. Didn't think it was a big deal.
I don't have a car trailer to move the car.

I removed the manifold again. Flipped it over and laid the gasket on it. Nice the gasket don't fit. Especially on them 2 ports for cylinder 5&7. The bottom of the gasket doesn't sit on anything. The manifold isn't planed right.
Back to jegs it goes.

In hope that's why the was at the bottom corners of the heads.

 

[Mike]

I go on this rant, pretty regularly, but it seems to be time to do it all over again.

Check everything. Trust nothing to chance. Everybody will pick up a dozen eggs at the market and check to be sure none of the eggs are broken, but never check anything they are bolting inside the engine they are building. If you measure bearing clearance and determine you need a .001 extra clearance bearing, then be mighty doggone sure you measure the clearance with the new bearings in place. Because IF YOU DON'T CHECK, THEN YOU DON'T KNOW!!! Just because a gasket is marked as being .060 thick, are you going to just blindly assume some numpty didn't screw up an put the wrong gaskets in the package? Just because you bought a brand-new oil pump, are you actually going to bolt it on without taking it apart and checking to be sure it is clean. And are you now going to bolt it back together, without checking any of the clearances inside the pump? Just because you purchased a new set of pushrods, are you going to check them for length, or roll them on a piece of glass, to make sure no one has made any mistakes? If you buy a set of aftermarket rods for your 350 Chevy, are you going to measure the doggone things for length, to be sure you don't have one, or more, 400 rods? Or are you one of those people who thinks .135" is nothing amongst friends? Get the oil pan gaskets glued to the block and then lay that new oil pan onto those clean and dry gaskets, before you put sealer on the pan side. When you are building a new engine, get #1 at verified TDC and then check that new balancer and timing pointer, to be sure the pointer is truly indicating TDC. Because if you do not check the other guy's work, then you are never going to know where your timing is going to end up.

CHECK EVERYTHING!!!!! If you are going to make assumptions, then get the H-E-double hockey sticks out of the bloody garage and take your stuff to a reputable machine shop, where you can pay someone who knows what they are doing. Yes, that is the expensive route, but you are paying that man to check everything for you. Check bloody everything!

Here is an example of what happens when you fail to check everything. When I was still at the shop, we used fuel system components from a fuel system manufacturer who should remain nameless (<cough>Barry<cough,cough>Grant). He had a Carter-style fuel pump for SBC that already had #8 fittings in the pump, so we kept them on hand. We had just finished a motor, bolted on one of these pumps and onto the dyno it went. And whilst warming the engine, it suddenly started spewing fuel out of the primary bowl vent. Since I was the guy who did all the carb work, everyone was howling at me. I knocked the bowl off and found a chunk of aluminum in the needle and seat assembly. I marched over to the shelf, pulled down a brand-new fuel pump and pulled the bottom cover off it. It was full of aluminum, because Grant had drilled and tapped the pump bodies without taking them apart!

You have to look at everything, as if it is a wrong or defective part. It is up to you to proof each and every part, to verify the part is what it was sold to be and that it has been manufactured properly. One of my dad's favorite reminders to me was to ask why I never seemed to have time to do things the right way, but always seemed to have time to do them over. Give that some thought, the next time you buy anything. And think about it, prior to bolting it onto an engine.

oino, why were you using a .120" thick intake gasket? 1255 is an extra-thick gasket, to be used with combinations that have had a lot of deck milling done, to make things line up. Had you checked port alignment and determined you needed that thick gasket? No wonder you had oil leaks, what with using that thick side gasket. It was going to take a healthy bead of silicone on the end seals, to fill that gap. Did 1255 have the correct port dimensions for your heads and intake? A 1209 Fel-Pro gasket is made for a standard SBC head, but try to use it on a stock 350 and you will be crying the blues, because those 1.38" X 2.38" port openings won't seal a doggone thing. What thickness head gasket did you use? Did you check them, so you would know?

 

[oino]

I understand everything you're saying Mike. I'm doing the best I can.
I used the 1255 gaskets on the manifold the first time because when I looked up what gaskets to use on carb manifold with vortec heads that's what came up.
Then I change them to a standard thickness gasket which did't seal anything because the gasket sucked. Now I'm using stock vortec gaskets.

Head gaskets are stock fel-pro .039 thick.
Per one finger johns post I did check with the head place and that is what they recommend. Or the 501sd.

 

[Screaming Metal]

Check everything. Trust nothing

Best words for building any type of motor....

 

[Mike]

I understand everything you're saying Mike. I'm doing the best I can.

I realize that. The rant wasn't directed at you. But, you also need to realize you need to do better. Just bolting on an intake requires checking and verifying things, all the way from measuring gasket thickness (on both side gaskets, mind) to laying the intake on the heads, with dry gaskets, to see what kind of end seals you will need to use and how thick a bead of silicone it will require. Whilst the intake is laying on the dry gaskets, get a probe light into as many runners as possible, to see how the intake runners are lining up with the head runners. Once the intake is bolted down, drop the distributor in and take a look at what you will need for a distributor gasket. Any machine work done to the block or heads may change that dimension, as well. To a point where a single gasket may no longer work. Put some white grease on the distributor drive gear and drop it into the engine, snug up the hold down and then rotate the engine, two complete turns. Pull the distributor out and look at the contact pattern in the grease. Is there good contact, or do changes need to be made? See how many things come into play, just in bolting on an intake? And just changing from .120" thick side gaskets to .060" side gaskets, all willy-nilly, is a recipe for failure.

Check everything. When you are done checking it, then check it a second time. When you are certain you have everything sorted, then it is time to check it a third time. Do not start applying that first drop of sealer to anything, until you are satisfied that everything is right. Take pictures, make notes and keep records of what you have done. Believe me, you will come to appreciate those records. And if you sell the car, the next guy that has to tear into the engine will appreciate them, too.

Now, you are beginning to see the machine shops really are not charging exorbitant prices, they are merely getting paid to do all the checking and re-checking they know they must do.

 

[oino]

Got the manifold to FedEx. Going to be about a week n a half for a new one. Changing to a Edelbrock 2716.

 

[one finger john]

O.K. here is what we know.
1. The intake manifold is on it's way back (Summit/Jeg's) and an Edelbrock 2716 will be coming back.
Sure would like to know who the defective manifold's manufacturer is.
2. Not much else.

Here is what we don't know.
1. Are the heads new from G.M. or are they from Dart or RHS or China or where? Are they new?
2. Are they remanufactured and who did the remanufacturing?
3. O.K.., FAST makes the EFI but WHICH EFI???? If you say the eight injectors with a computer, that is not enough info. How about a part number for the kit.
4. How hot is hot??? At what temp did you declare that the engine is overheating (WHAT WAS THE TEMP???). Through out this whole post you HAVE NEVER SAID HOW HOT IS HOT. HOT enough to melt kryptonite? What?
5. A complete lack of detailed pictures showing what the original condition of the engine was (Keeper has spoiled me). You know, the injector system, cooling system, the exhaust system. This is September 7, 2013. We have the technology to allow information exchange on the internet to be painless and through.
Why is that ability not being used now? The more we know the more we can help you. You have a tendency to ignore questions about what is happening in the engine. If I ask a question I am not doing it rhetorically. It's a question that I feel is valid and will help in the diagnosis.

Every person that has responded to your questions, is or has been, an automotive, electrical or computer expert. I have 15 years in the mechanical repair end (Jaguar,MG, Rolls - old cars) and another 10 years in the dealership/service end, all with Honda of America. Screaming Metal (would really like to know your proper name), Mike, Keeper, Mango, and all the others have been there, done that and more. If they all agree that something is wrong then you can usually take it to the bank that is what it is. Whatever the problem may be. If your buddies where you live are so red hot, why isn't the car running yet?

I hate to see a problem that is relatively simple be so painful to repair. When I came by your house three years ago and you were working on the T in the mud, underneath a big blue tarp, I was amazed at how simple the concept and execution of a T Bucket was. These cars are BUTT simple.

This has given way to a lot of frustration for me and I don't want to be in that place. I will not participate in this thread anymore.

John

Oh, BTW, if there really is oil seeping out along the bottom of the cylinder heads, as you have indicated in your last picture, then there is the distinct possibility that you have warped the heads or damaged the gaskets through overheating (whatever that temp may be, still don't know, you never shared that with us). That can only be cured by removing the heads and checking.

Lack of proper information will always do you in.

 

[Screaming Metal]

And we still don't know if its whats causing your miss and backfire....its best to have too much info, than not enough. Though it definitely wasn't helping!

 

[oino]

.

I believe I have give all the info I can give. Unless I don't have the info.
Are my posts not clear? I have have a efi thread where I said what efi I have. Maybe you didn't read that.
So here we go. A run down:

Fast ez efi 2.0 kit #30402-KIT
It is a throttle body. It came with a electric fuel pump.
Required fuel psi is 43, I have it set to 43.
Manifold was a JEGS brand manifold
Heads purchased new from a company in Texas. (I'd rather not say there name)
They advertised them as new. So I got them. I believe them to be GM. Casting number #12558062
The highest Temp I let the engine get when it overheated way 210. That was once. Other then that I made sure I cut the engine off at 200
The by-pass tube has fixed that. It don't go over 190 now.

Head Gaskets Fel-pro #7733PT2
Head bolts Fel-pro #ES72856
Manifold bolts Fel-pro #ES72224
Exhause gaskets Mr. Gasket 1.63 ports. Got them at Advance auto parts
Intake gaskets used first: Fel-Pro 1255, Then tryed: SuperSeal speedway item #91010225, Then changed to Fel-pro gasket #MS90131.
The back firing and the popping started after changing to the last set of gaskets.
After all three gasket changes oil still has leaked at the bottom of the heads.

Temp sending unit in the block is a VDO 250 degress sending unit. It connects to the Vdo gauge.
Temp sending unit in the manifold came with the Fast system. The reading for that is viewed on the fast handheld.
T-stat is a 180 temp.

Small block 350
Bore .030
9.5 compression
Cam: comp camp part # 12-230-2
Spark plugs are Champion Platinum #3025
400 trans
Jag rearend with 2.88 gears.
Fuel tank from RPM 13 gal.
Body from spirit.
Box from a place in Minnesota. (don't recall the name of the place.)
Frame from spirit with changes for the jag set up done by GAB
Cruise control
All VDO vision gauges. None of them are mechanical.
8 fuse fuse panel from speedway
Battery from walmart.
cooling fan from speedway item #91015449
Radiator from Chapion radiators.
Ignition control module: MSD 5520 Street Fire CDI Ignition
Gas in the Tank right now is 87 with no ethanol in it.

When I installed the heads I cleaned the block with acetone until it was clean.
Before I installed anything I wided the surface down with acetone.

I think that covers it all.

And we still don't know if its whats causing your miss and backfire....its best to have too much info, than not enough. Though it definitely wasn't helping!

I pretty sure it was the manifold.
Still not sure about that oil leak around heads.
This time when I removed the manifold I can see that the rtv was down in the corners. Don't see how that could leak.
Thinking it might be was Mike said or the heads are warped and only letting oil pass by and not coolant.
I think is highly unlikly.

Sorry I haven't said what any thing has smelled like because I don't have a sense of smell.
But oil tastes like oil and the antifreeze tastes like antifreeze

 

[Screaming Metal]

Now, THATS what I'm talkin' about! Info! Hahahaha, yes, I believe the intake also was the problem. believe now you'll be able to get her running....

 

[Mike]

oino, I just want to show you where some of your problem could be. Look at the dimensions of these intake gaskets -

1255 Fel-Pro - 2.160 X 1.080 X .120
91010225 Super Seal - 1.120 X 1.080 X .065

We've no idea which one of those gaskets was correct, or even if one of them was correct, because we've no idea what your port dimensions are like. A 513002 Jeg's intake has port dimensions of 2.030 X 1.040. If one of those gasket sets was anywhere close to being right, then the other was all wrong. And sorry for pointing a finger here, but Ray Charles could have seen the difference in those gaskets, aye?

That is what I mean when I say you need to do better.

A .120" thick side gasket was going to stand the intake off more than a .065 gasket, which means you have been seriously changing not just runner alignment between the head and the intake, but also changing the opening between the end seal areas of the block and the intake. And I suspect this is the source of your oil leaks. Mind that intake side gaskets are not made to mechanically interlock with the end seals, which means you need to be sure you work some silicone sealer into all four of those interfaces.

You say you are using acetone to clean things. Commercial acetone is a good cleaner, but I question if that is what you are using, or if you are using fingernail polish remover, instead. The polish remover has oil in it, to keep your good lady's cuticles from drying out. And silicone will never seal an oily surface. If you are not using commercial-grade acetone, go get a gallon of cheap lacquer thinner to use for cleaner, remembering to use it in a well-ventilated area, away from any open flame. Read that last part about 17 times, OK?

If you cannot find an intake gasket set that is correct for your intake and heads, then buy something smaller than your smallest dimension. Lay the dry gasket on the heads and on the intake, to see which dimension is the smallest. Then grab some fresh X-Acto blades for your knife and start trimming the opening in the gasket, so it fits like a glove. Once you get the gasket trimmed, start cleaning, cleaning, cleaning. Get that intake in a bucket of hot water with some Tide laundry detergent and scrub it until you are soaked. If you don't have water sloshing in your shoes, then you haven't thoroughly cleaned it, so do it again. Rinse it off in the hottest water you can find and blow it dry. Then start cleaning every last surface with thinner on paper towels. No shop rags allowed, leave the lint for someone else to fight.

This is a good time to set lifter preload on a hydraulic lifter, since you can measure things as you go.. On a standard lifter, go for about .035" preload.

You will want to use 08001 3M weatherstrip adhesive around the intake ports and silicone sealer around the water ports. Yes, I know, the 3M gorilla snot is going to be a royal bitch for whoever has to pull that intake the next time, but if you seal it up right, it won't be you having to do it. I must admit, I am not a fan of using end seals, particularly rubber, but pick your poison. If you feel you must use end seals, glue them to the block and then lay an appropriate bead of silicone atop the seals, giving it a few minutes to skin over, before laying the intake down. Just be sure to work plenty of silicone into the corners, where the heads, block and intake all meet up. In your case, remember that you have already had oil in this area, so be sure you carefully clean this area with thinner, because all the silicone in the world is not going to seal oily surfaces.

One thing I cannot recall reading was what kind of crankcase ventilation you are using. As this thread is now at a painful length, I can't be bothered, wading back through, to see if you've mentioned it. It's pretty rare to see a fresh motor leaking oil at the manifold seals, unless you are not allowing the crankcase to breathe. You need breathers in each valve cover, or a breather in one side and a PCV valve in the other. Failure to do that is going to have you chasing oil leaks until the Second Coming.

I know, it seems like you are suddenly being taken to school, here. Try not to take it too personally, because this entire exercise is to show you just how critical you have to be in the selection of all engine components. If/when you get this engine running right, you will have learned some valuable lessons. Try to focus on that aspect of this learning process. If you can get this engine running right and learn some lessons in the process, then it will be worthwhile.

 

[Screaming Metal]

Chris, what Mike is trying to say is that we've had to earn our bones, through the years, the hard way. Its taken years for us to learn this. We're trying to pass on our knowledge to the younger generation or the uninformed.
All these guys here have been doing all this for years and years. Speaking for myself, I was in Racing when Garlits came out with the rear motored Swamp Rat....I was there....

 

[2old2fast]

And just to defend your position a little , if a different intake clears up the issues , you will be exonerated of all charges !!
dave

com'n guys , it's a car , not all that life shattering , let's add a little levity here ....

 

[oino]

Screaming Metal: I know and I thank you all. I'm am learning.

Mike: You make a lot of good points there.
I am using PCV on one valve cover and a breather on the other.
Same setup I had before the head swap.
Remember this was a good working motor before this head swap that took it all down hill...

I beleave it was Screaming Metal who told me to use acetone in the Head gasket thread I made asking about what head gasket I should use.
I got the acetone at home depot.
If lacquer thinner is the way to go then I go get some today.

....yep found it. was in my thread "Head Gaskets wow so many."

Screaming Metal said
"Just be sure to get all your deck surfaces clean, wipe the deck down on both the block and head with some acetone, get it squeaky clean, make sure all the crap is out of your bores"

 

[old round fart]

Have you considered a crate motor? LOL

 

[oino]

Have you considered a crate motor? LOL

LOL!!! Thats funny.
Thats what my friends have said.
Don't think it was crossed my mind. I've done the cost calc. in my head.

 

[Screaming Metal]

Yep, You can get a Mr. GoodWrench Hi-Perf. motor already built, then just drop her in. If it screws up, just send it back.
The only reason why I say acetone is I get it by the Barrel. Lacquer Thinner is a great cleaner, I prefer it over acetone, its just what I have on hand that'll get all the residue off. If things have ANY oil at all on it, your gasket sealer WILL not stick. I hate leaks....
Yea, I know its a car....I've seen guys get so pissed that they'll scrap something, or sell it....