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Brian's Bucket Build

This is a real puzzler. These are small cars with big brakes; you should be able to lock up all 4 with little effort. Might remove the residuals and the prop valve, just to eliminate them as suspects. And make sure the drums are adjusted with a little drag. Ditto for the discs. Keep us informed; lots of experience available here.
 
Some put the proportioning valve on the fronts to reduce pressure thus balancing, but if you have poor braking as opposed to over sensitive fronts, that won’t cure it. When you bleed them, did you have good pressure and fluid flow to the rear brakes? What about pedal ratio? What size line did you run? Something isn’t right.
 
The first thing I did was remove the residual valves and proportioning valve. It appears to have ample flow to the rears. The pedal ratio is about 7:1 and I ran 3/16 line with inverted flares. Tomorrow it suppose to rain so I'm going to pull all the tires, drums, calipers and recheck everything to make sure I didn't do something stupid.
 
A couple of months ago I was having a problem with the right front wheel locking up. I removed the drums and found that there was a leaking wheel cylinder. I replaced both front wheel cylinders. Still locked up the right front wheel. I tried all the normal adjustments without any luck .Finally I replaced the brake shoes. I bled the lines and the pedal is high and hard. The pulling problem went away. The only thing is I don't think the brakes are as sensitive or stop as well as the old shoes.
Years ago when you would buy brake shoes and have the drums cut they would trim the shoes to fit the drum diameter better. I remember as a youngster going to the auto parts store and seeing that being done. Dust flying around! Someone on this forum said that they don't do that any more. I pulled the drums one more time and I can see the wear pattern is on the top and bottom of the shoes. At the edge of the shoe material Not fully covering the arc of the shoe. I don't know if there any auto machine shops that do that any more.
 
I bevel the top and bottom edges of the shoes to stop squeal and to make sure the rest of the shoe hits the drum squarely. Most shoes do not have asbestos in them any more, but wear a mask as you do this outside the shop.


BRAKE BASICS BY Fat Pat Anderson

Is your pedel soft? Having trouble bleeding?
Brake Bleeding

We will start with bench bleeding the master cylinder. Most new master
cylinders sold today come with 2 plugs. These plugs are to be used to
block off both outlet ports. This is a foolproof bench bleeding method.
The whole purpose of bench bleeding the master cylinder is to get the
air out of the cylinder so that we don't push it down into the system
when we start bleeding our wheel cylinders and calipers.

Mount the master cylinder in a vice. Using the plugs supplied with the
master cylinder, screw them into the outlet ports and tighten. Next,
fill both reservoirs with the type of fluid you are going to use. (Dot 3
or Dot 5). Using a dowel rod or large Phillips head screwdriver, stroke
the piston using 3/4" to I" strokes. You will see the air bubbles coming
up into the reservoirs through the com-pensating ports.

Stroke the piston until you cannot stroke it any more. When you can't
stroke it any more, you are finished. This is the easiest and most
foolproof way to bench bleed a master cylinder. It also happens to be a
very good way to check a master cylinder if it is already mounted in the
vehicle. When you plug off both outlet ports and step on the brake
pedal, you should have a high hard pedal. If the pedal eases toward the
floor, then you know you have a master cylinder that is either
"bypassing" or leaking backwards out the pri-mary piston seal and should
not be used. Leave both plugs in the outlet ports and mount the master
cylin-der in the vehicle. Hook up the line going to the rear brakes and
leave the other outlet plugged. A bladder type pressure bleeder is by
far the best tool to use at this point, but they are very expensive and
my suggestion would be for each NTBA Chapter to purchase one so it would
be available for chapter members to use.

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I am assuming we do not have a pressure bleeder, so we are going to use
the "pump" method to bleed the brakes. (we will start with the wheel
furthest from the master cylinder which will be the right rear) First
get a clear glass container and put 2" of brake fluid in it. Now get a
vacuum hosethe correct size to fit over the bleeder valve

hose.jpg
hose.jpg (9.15 KiB) Viewed 119 times

(use a box end bleeder wrench on the bleeder valve before you slip the
hose onto the valve) and put the end of it in the glass container BELOW
the surface of the fluid.

Now (and this isVERY important) have a friend pump up the pedal making
sure that the reservoir is full of fluid. You MUST communicate with your
friend who is pumping up the pedal for you. He/ she should tell you when
the pedal is pumped up and being held. You then loosen the bleeder valve
and you will be able to see the air bubbles come out of the system into
the fluid that you have in your clear glass container. The person
pumping the pedal should not start pumping again until you tell them to,
after you retighten the bleeder valve. If your friend starts pump-ing
the pedal BEFORE you have the bleeder valve completely closed, you will
simply suck aerated fluid back into the system.

Repeat this procedure until there are no more bubbles coming into your
glass container and you are then ready to move to the next wheel. After
you have completed both rear wheels, you should have a high hard pedal.
Now we can remove the plug from the outlet port for the front brakes and
using the same procedure, we will begin at the right front wheel.

If we have disc brakes on the front, MAKE SURE that the bleeder valve is
as high as it can be. In some cases, the caliper may need to be removed
from the vehicle and use a piece of I/2" or 3/4" plywood to take the
place of the rotor.

If you use this method, you should be able to get the air out of your
new brake system and have a high, hard brake pedal.

As always, you can find me on the BBS most every evening.
Fat Pat

Editors note: Fat Pat "Brakeman" Anderson is a brake expert who has
produced brake videos and taught courses on brake repair and service.
Pat has a long history with automobiles, parts and T-buckets (though
with the sale of the flaming chicken Bucket, he is currently without the
best ride in the world!) Thanks Pat for this article, keep 'em coming!
 

Attachments

  • Brake Bleeding - National T-Bucket Alliance.txt
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A couple of months ago I was having a problem with the right front wheel locking up. I removed the drums and found that there was a leaking wheel cylinder. I replaced both front wheel cylinders. Still locked up the right front wheel. I tried all the normal adjustments without any luck .Finally I replaced the brake shoes. I bled the lines and the pedal is high and hard. The pulling problem went away. The only thing is I don't think the brakes are as sensitive or stop as well as the old shoes.
Years ago when you would buy brake shoes and have the drums cut they would trim the shoes to fit the drum diameter better. I remember as a youngster going to the auto parts store and seeing that being done. Dust flying around! Someone on this forum said that they don't do that any more. I pulled the drums one more time and I can see the wear pattern is on the top and bottom of the shoes. At the edge of the shoe material Not fully covering the arc of the shoe. I don't know if there any auto machine shops that do that any more.[/QUOTE.]

Those were called brake shoe truing machines. OSHA outlawed that practice a few decades ago.
 
Well, I took everything apart and inspected yesterday. Secretly hoping to find that I did something stupid, nope everything looks good. Since it appears I have ample fluid flow to the calipers and wheel cylinders and everything moves when the brakes are applied, it has to be lack of pressure. So, I just ordered a new m/c , this one has a 1" bore instead of the 1 1/8" bore on there currently. It will be here tomorrow and on by the weekend. We'll see what happens.
 
Regarding the brakes. I think you have 2 issues.
(1) I believe you have the large Chevelle style calipers and rotors combined with S10 drums?
Thats an iffy match to get right.
The small S10 drums, when on an S10, are matched with a 9.5-10" rotor and a smaller bore caliper.
By matching them with the larger bore Chevelle calipers and bigger diameter rotors you have basicly made the rear brakes useless.
I had the exact same combo!
To balance the brakes I used a FRONT mounted adjustable proportioning valve to slightly limit front brake effectiveness. IIRC, I only had to turn it in 1/2 a turn from wide open and that was enough to let the rear do their part.

I also should mention that I tried different pads for a summer and the brakes were very poor. Ended up putting the old pads back on (just changed them as they were a bit dirty looking...still perfect shape!) Instantly got better braking. BOTH sets were organic...so they aren't all created equal!

(2) I'm thinking you are on the right track to replace that master with one thats a slightly smaller bore.
We don't usually get much pedal leverage so that should help create some extra force at those big calipers. Just be sure the pedal has room to travel without bottoming out as its gonna be a bit lower. It has to travel farther to pump the same volume of fluid.

On my car (MY car)...I needed residual pressure valves as it seems the caliper pistons would retract just a little too much while driving and then the pedal was very low as the resulting gap between the pistons and the pads had to be taken up before the brakes even applied. Once I used them the double pump brakes were gone and the car was a joy to drive and brake.
You may not need them...it seems to be a car to car thing.
Note...people seem to think that the only possible reason a brake pedal can be low is air, but repeated bleeding found none in my system, yet the brakes sucked.
Over-retraction of the caliper pistons is the only thing left after that...and theres not much to prevent it but piston seal drag.
Maybe calipers with looser clearances are the culprit...I have no idea.

I DO know that I had the same basic problem with an AMC Eagle years ago.
Cronic low pedal after a brake job.
The cause of that was dirt between the rotor and hub causing the rotor to rock (along with the wheel of course but I didn't notice a steering issue). The rocking rotor would force the piston back when the brakes weren't applied and increase the clearance that the pedal push had to take up. Oddly you couldn't feel the rocking rotor as the caliper sliders let the caliper rock back and forth with it when the brakes were applied!
Anyway...my T brake issue was basicly the same thing (too much gap) and with those extra little tweeks it all went away and I was satisfied with the resulting performance.

Hope it helps...that was a lot of typing! LOL
 
Well, I changed the master and the brakes feel much better. I can now lock up the fronts with a lot less effort, however the rears seam to be inoperative. I feel a whole lot safer driving now. I guess I'll put the residual valves back in and see what happens, can't hurt. Should all 4 wheels be locking up at he same time?
 
That happened to me; the fix was to backup & apply the brakes several times, to let the self-adjusters on the rears do their job. No more problems!
 
That's my problem, the rears don't lock up at all.

Assuming you have the adjustment correct . . . .

Have you got a pic of the MC, does it have a larger reservoir and a smaller one? . . . it should for a disk / drum setup

Disk brakes need more fluid than drum, so the smaller res goes for the rear brakes
 
Brian...read my previous post. I had the same brakes...same issue.
 
You can also change your rear brakes to larger diameter Chevelle or Camaro units if you want. Gotta change backing plates too though. The front proportioning valve is a lot cheaper and simpler. Spirit cars uses them on the front of all their T builds! As you are set up now you will find the car locks the front wheels and slides on grass or loose gravel...most likely rain too if you get caught in a shower at some point.
The rears do basicly nothing. In the right situation it can be very dangerous!
 
Really? I know a number of people with no front brakes that might disagree.
Totally out of context!
What I am saying is that the large front brakes overpower the small rears...and in THAT situation the rears effectively do nothing.
He could take the front brakes off the car as it sits...and then drive the car. The rear brakes will stop it.
I doubt he will like it...but it will stop. LOL
Once you radically mismatch the front and rears though, strange things can happen.
I worked thru this exact same problem as I had the exact same brake setup.
 

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