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new, dumb and some scary handling

With cross steering the panhard rod keeps the front axle from swinging on the shackles. If it swings, and the steering box stays in the same place the front wheels turn causing bump steer. Same is true on the rear. If the rear end is allowed to move from side to side the rear end pivots on the radius rods and acts like the front wheels on a wagon! I'm not even sure it would be drivable at all without a rear bar, so the problem is more than likely the problem. Lit us know what you find. John
 
drivable is a relative term with thes things, isn't it? o_O it all seems fine until the road surface gets irregular and then it all goes to shit.
 
i hope so! i really, really love the thing but just want the handling to be acceptable, which it clearly is not now.
 
I would start with installing a panhard rod in the front and if there is not one in the rear - Do that also. Then see what you have - Tracking Alignment etc.
 
Everyone's advice to install a panhard bar on the front is spot-on correct. Whenever using cross-steering (which you have) on a "buggy spring" front end, a panhard bar (or the more complicated watts link) is not optional, it's required. I don't see one in any of your pictures, so that's where you should probably start. That will likely take care of 90% of your trouble... I would guess that since the rear has coil-overs, it probably already has a panhard bar. If so, make sure it is as level as possible when the car is sitting at ride height. Make adjustments (drill new holes, modify brackets, etc.) if necessary to get it level. Just a slight incline either direction can cause the rear end to "dance" sideways on a rough surface. Too stiff springs and / or shocks on the rear will exacerbate the problem, too. I have attached a couple of construction shots. The first is the panhard on the front of the roadster in my avatar. It is mounted behind and below the axle - notice the multiple holes on the frame bracket for adjustment. Second pic is the panhard on my '31 Ford coupe. It is directly behind the axle - note again multiple holes in the frame bracket.

DCP02380.JPGDCP01578a.JPG
 
thanks bro for your observations. pretty sure i do not have panhard bar at either end (the car is not here for me to look at) and my lack of knowledge of these things is pretty obvious since i don't even know a) if there is one and b) what, exactly they do! i am assuming i need them front and rear? what will i notice, in terms of handling?

regarding coilovers, how best to gauge how much to adjust? i think there are 6 threads exposed below the bottom of the spring. guys like you could likely drive the car and almost immediately know what direction to go, but i don't. does anybody know a shop in san diego that could help me dial it in?
 
With all the hot rods in Cal. I would think you would have no trouble finding someone to help you. Look for rod runs or car clubs in the area. Google Car club in your town and see what comes up.
 
my lack of knowledge of these things is pretty obvious since i don't even know a) if there is one and b) what, exactly they do!


OK. Let me explain. (Sorry if I get wordy - I'm a retired school teacher.) A panhard bar is used to keep the axle (front or rear) from moving side-to-side. When an axle is suspended by a pair of parallel leaf springs, there is no side-to-side movement, so a panhard bar is not needed. When coil springs or coilover shocks are used, however, the axle has to have some way to keep it centered. One method is a triangulated 4-bar system, another is a wishbone arrangement like Ex-Junk's roadster, and still another is a Watts link or Jacob's ladder. All are effective and each has its advantages. I could write a full page explaining the workings of each, but a simple panhard bar is the easiest to understand, the easiest to fabricate, and usually requires the least space. It is an adjustable link that reaches from a mounting point on one side of the frame to a mounting point near the opposite end of the axle. If you look at the first picture in my post above, the frame bracket is on the right front corner of the frame (left side in the picture; we're looking from the front). The opposite end of the bar is attached to a bracket welded on the axle near the left end. The axle is free to move up and down, but its side-to-side location is stabilized by the panhard bar. It will still move side-to-side very slightly because as the panhard bar swings up and down it moves in a radius or semi-circular motion. That movement is now controlled, however, and it is very slight.

When a transverse leaf spring (commonly called "buggy spring") is used like on the front of your roadster a couple of variables come into play. A transverse leaf spring with a lot of preload and very short shackles has a sort of "self-centering" effect and do not always require a panhard bar. Ford built cars for years (up through 1934) with no panhard bar or any other axle centering device except spring tension because they had what is called parallel steering (The steering gear and drag link put forward/backward force on the axle). When they went to cross-steering in 1935, they added a panhard bar to the front axle assembly. The reason is when you apply steering wheel input, the steering box (or Unisteer unit on your car) puts sideways pressure on the steering linkage. Without a panhard bar the effect is it moves the whole axle assembly sideways to the limits of the spring and shackles before the wheels actually begin to "steer". The panhard bar keeps the axle assembly centered so the steering wheel input is instantly translated into wheel movement.

I hope this helps...
 
my lack of knowledge of these things is pretty obvious since i don't even know a) if there is one and b) what, exactly they do!


OK. Let me explain. (Sorry if I get wordy - I'm a retired school teacher.) A panhard bar is used to keep the axle (front or rear) from moving side-to-side. When an axle is suspended by a pair of parallel leaf springs, there is no side-to-side movement, so a panhard bar is not needed. When coil springs or coilover shocks are used, however, the axle has to have some way to keep it centered. One method is a triangulated 4-bar system, another is a wishbone arrangement like Ex-Junk's roadster, and still another is a Watts link or Jacob's ladder. All are effective and each has its advantages. I could write a full page explaining the workings of each, but a simple panhard bar is the easiest to understand, the easiest to fabricate, and usually requires the least space. It is an adjustable link that reaches from a mounting point on one side of the frame to a mounting point near the opposite end of the axle. If you look at the first picture in my post above, the frame bracket is on the right front corner of the frame (left side in the picture; we're looking from the front). The opposite end of the bar is attached to a bracket welded on the axle near the left end. The axle is free to move up and down, but its side-to-side location is stabilized by the panhard bar. It will still move side-to-side very slightly because as the panhard bar swings up and down it moves in a radius or semi-circular motion. That movement is now controlled, however, and it is very slight.

When a transverse leaf spring (commonly called "buggy spring") is used like on the front of your roadster a couple of variables come into play. A transverse leaf spring with a lot of preload and very short shackles has a sort of "self-centering" effect and do not always require a panhard bar. Ford built cars for years (up through 1934) with no panhard bar or any other axle centering device except spring tension because they had what is called parallel steering (The steering gear and drag link put forward/backward force on the axle). When they went to cross-steering in 1935, they added a panhard bar to the front axle assembly. The reason is when you apply steering wheel input, the steering box (or Unisteer unit on your car) puts sideways pressure on the steering linkage. Without a panhard bar the effect is it moves the whole axle assembly sideways to the limits of the spring and shackles before the wheels actually begin to "steer". The panhard bar keeps the axle assembly centered so the steering wheel input is instantly translated into wheel movement.

I hope this helps...
Here's the Watts linkage on my C cab. Hop this helps.
Terry
 

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  • Watts link.JPG
    Watts link.JPG
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drivable is a relative term with thes things, isn't it? o_O it all seems fine until the road surface gets irregular and then it all goes to shit.
I, and it seems everyone else as well can see no reason from the photographs why, when the axle travel is controlled, you will not have a pleasant and safe handling car to drive. A common misconception is that a bucket has to be a bad handler. Not so. Admittedly the more radical buckets with MC wheels and tars on front and 18" MT's at rear may need careful driving within their possible limitations, but a more "conventional" shod car will brake and handle with the best of them given the correct set up items like brake bias, spring rates, shocks, tar pressures and front end geometry. IMHO shocks are a critical item, with spring rates a close second - most buckets I see are way over sprung and the shocks, whose job is to keep all four tars planted on the pavement just cannot cope. Keep in mind we usually use braking systems and tar sizes intended for vehicles over twice or even more our buckets weight, but we need to back off on the springs. JM2CW, as usual.....................
 
so i am trying to find who can best fit panhard rods to the car here in north county san diego. also, think i should try backing the coilovers down (there are 6 or 7 thread turns left...
 
You obviously didn't build the frame. Get a hold of the original builder and see if they had an option for panhard bars, front and rear. I know that Spirit has front bars as standard equipment, some people would take them off just as a personal preference. Hopefully there is a rear bar already on.
 
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Check on your bat wings, there MIGHT be a threaded hole for your bar. You just have to weld a mount on your frame.
 
You have to have a rear pan-hard. Otherwise body will sway side to side all the time. I do not have front pan-hard and it drives nice.
 

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