Keepers build
- Thread starter Keeper
- Start date
Keeper
Active Member
Not much of an update, I have been awaiting parts and for the steel shop to open. Well they were open today so after running around all day I had time to whip up a cross member/drive shaft loop.
So Ted this is for you!
With the driveshaft being so short its not a super needed item, but I was planning on another cross member anyway and figured why not do both. I used some 1.5 x 3 x 1/8 and some 6 inch 1/8 wall tube for the loop. I cut the tube, straightened the sides and tada.
Not much to look at, but it gives me some strength and will keep the driveshaft out of my rear in case it grenades.
Tomorrow I will be adding 45's to make them both "K members" I am sure its overkill, but why not!
So Ted this is for you!
With the driveshaft being so short its not a super needed item, but I was planning on another cross member anyway and figured why not do both. I used some 1.5 x 3 x 1/8 and some 6 inch 1/8 wall tube for the loop. I cut the tube, straightened the sides and tada.
Not much to look at, but it gives me some strength and will keep the driveshaft out of my rear in case it grenades.
Tomorrow I will be adding 45's to make them both "K members" I am sure its overkill, but why not!
Keeper
Active Member
I see a problem already, the shaft will hit the top of the cross member when your car goes over a nice big bump or dip... Otherwise it looks great! BUT! I really would like to see it from the rear to be sure I did not stick my foot in my mouth
Its a jag it better not move!!There is at least an inch all the way around.
Ted Brown
Member
I am blind today, I have been missing all sorts of plays today, I lost my A$ at cards with my Wife, because I was somewhere else (in my mind) I reckon... Sure should have noticed that! it is sticking out like a sore thumb... daaaaaaaaaaaaa this getting old SUCKS some days... In that case, it is Beautiful, and will give you some peace of mind for sure... Daaa missed again I see you have the driveshaft yokes 90 from each other, probably not necessary with a none moving Jag rear, like it would be in my car where it moves to the limit of the joints when the car moves up and down, I had to use travel stops on both sides of the rear housing...
Keeper
Active Member
Not sure if you can see it in the pic, the driveshaft is not welded up in the rear yet. I just cut my long one down so I could make the loop. Now that the loop is done I will take it and all the measurements down to the driveshaft shop.
Keeper
Active Member
So today I continued with the crossmembers and bracing. I probably went a bit overboard with them, but it makes me feel better. I had posted a while ago about not trusting the welds, you will see in the pics what I meant. It caused me to make a change to my bracing.
I started with this:
But after cleaning off the frame before I tacked things up, I really started noticing the welds were less then satisfactory. I was planning on flagging all the joints on the frame, but this killed two birds. On the rear braces I extended them to cover the joint. I will still flag the outside as well.
Here if you look you can see a hole in the corner, so much for "professionally" welded....
Other side:
And here it sits, right before I tore it apart.
I tore it down to the bare frame, tomorrow I will be grinding out and re-welding most of the joints. Then I will make some flags out of 1/8 plate and strengthening them up. Then its time to final weld everything.
I started with this:
But after cleaning off the frame before I tacked things up, I really started noticing the welds were less then satisfactory. I was planning on flagging all the joints on the frame, but this killed two birds. On the rear braces I extended them to cover the joint. I will still flag the outside as well.
Here if you look you can see a hole in the corner, so much for "professionally" welded....
Other side:
And here it sits, right before I tore it apart.
I tore it down to the bare frame, tomorrow I will be grinding out and re-welding most of the joints. Then I will make some flags out of 1/8 plate and strengthening them up. Then its time to final weld everything.
Ted Brown
Member
There is a lot more stress on those 2 frame tabs that hold the rods that hold the third member from moving, I would make them go from top to clear around the bottom to the outside edge, so they can't work their way out of that frame material, just a thought... Looking real good, a frame can't be TOO strong...
Keeper
Active Member
Thanks, I wasn't sure how much stress those had on them. I figured the upper mount took most of the twisting, thats why I beefed it up so much.
Not much work to add more to those tabs.
one finger john
Active Member
Keep, who did the original welding?
Keeper
Active Member
As far as I know the guy I bought it from. When I asked about it that was his answer "It was professionally welded"
At the time I did not know enough to look any closer. Live and learn I guess. I was too busy looking at the final goal, and missed the little things. Won't happen again!
Corley
New Member
With regard to Keepers driveshaft, Ted Said "Yes I did notice that, and figure you would get my drift about it, but welding them that way will let them work a lot farther without getting in a bind, same for steering joints..."
Ted,
I don't want to hijack this thread, (That means, "here I go, hijacking this thread..."), BUT,,, I've done a ton of driveshafts in my time, you know, the friend with the lathe always gets that job, and I have the lathe... Anyway, could you explain how your statement above makes sense. You know I love you to death, but I think you may be wrong on this one.
First, if you notice ALL factory shafts have the joints phased in alignment, not 90 degrees out. All examples in the Spicer/Dana PDF docs show the joints in phase, not 90 degrees out of phase. Also, when I shorten or build a shaft, I find it easy to keep the joints in phase because it's easy to get the alignment perfect, just place a flat metal bar along the joints flat edge, from end of the shaft to the other end joint (Over the flat end of the cup surface.). Judging 90 degrees is much more difficult. Second, a given joint can only move so far before binding, (way farther than ideal for no vibration anyway), regardless of what happens at the other end of the shaft. Third, keeping the joints aligned at zero instead of 90 degrees minimizes balance issues, thus minimizes vibrations. Forth, a typical joint cross has the pivots (cups) all aligned on the same plane, so phasing the shaft 90 out won't provide any additional angle overall. Lastly, if you want bigger angles on the joint, they make special joints where the cross is offset for that purpose, or better yet, go to a CV or rubber puck type joint. (Those offset joints are a vibration waiting to happen when installed backwards or 90 degrees out of phase.)
After having said all that, as you well know, max joint angle should never be aproached in a good design anyway, and certainly won't be in a T bucket. Perhaps I misunderstood what you said/meant, after all, like you I'm an old fart with CRS! Please correct me if that is the case...
:soapbox:
Stepping down now,
Corley
OH, Keeper, looking good!
Ted,
I don't want to hijack this thread, (That means, "here I go, hijacking this thread..."), BUT,,, I've done a ton of driveshafts in my time, you know, the friend with the lathe always gets that job, and I have the lathe... Anyway, could you explain how your statement above makes sense. You know I love you to death, but I think you may be wrong on this one.
First, if you notice ALL factory shafts have the joints phased in alignment, not 90 degrees out. All examples in the Spicer/Dana PDF docs show the joints in phase, not 90 degrees out of phase. Also, when I shorten or build a shaft, I find it easy to keep the joints in phase because it's easy to get the alignment perfect, just place a flat metal bar along the joints flat edge, from end of the shaft to the other end joint (Over the flat end of the cup surface.). Judging 90 degrees is much more difficult. Second, a given joint can only move so far before binding, (way farther than ideal for no vibration anyway), regardless of what happens at the other end of the shaft. Third, keeping the joints aligned at zero instead of 90 degrees minimizes balance issues, thus minimizes vibrations. Forth, a typical joint cross has the pivots (cups) all aligned on the same plane, so phasing the shaft 90 out won't provide any additional angle overall. Lastly, if you want bigger angles on the joint, they make special joints where the cross is offset for that purpose, or better yet, go to a CV or rubber puck type joint. (Those offset joints are a vibration waiting to happen when installed backwards or 90 degrees out of phase.)
After having said all that, as you well know, max joint angle should never be aproached in a good design anyway, and certainly won't be in a T bucket. Perhaps I misunderstood what you said/meant, after all, like you I'm an old fart with CRS! Please correct me if that is the case...
:soapbox:
Stepping down now,
Corley
OH, Keeper, looking good!
Gerry
Well-Known Member
You know I think that you cant have too much bracing on a chassis, so all your X members etc are right as far as I am concerned. The stiffer the better. Safety comes in numbers. I dont think I know a T with as much bracing as mine, Ive even been told its overkill, as it may well be. But one thing is for sure the back end is strong enough to stay where I want it.
The tie bars to the diff. Really glad to see you have nt gone for the 45* thing as it does not work. At 45* they tend to bend. Mine are in double sheer (at 60*) at the chassis mount. I would respectfully suggest for the sake of a couple more bracket you take the opportunity to do the same.
Just my 2c worth
Gerry
The tie bars to the diff. Really glad to see you have nt gone for the 45* thing as it does not work. At 45* they tend to bend. Mine are in double sheer (at 60*) at the chassis mount. I would respectfully suggest for the sake of a couple more bracket you take the opportunity to do the same.
Just my 2c worth
Gerry
Ted Brown
Member
Take any steering shaft, and most are running at close to full angle on these T Buckets and most other 32s, 34s, most any with late engines and changed steerings, for the guys that use them, most steering shafts now days are splined, so you can rotate the U joints very easily, you will see for yourself how now they now work smooth with no binding when the ends are now at 90 off from each other, The factory makes them even to each other because it is very easy to build a shaft that way, compared to 90 degrees off, which then you have to put the joint together first to line it all up, once together the whole thing is pretty dumb, and it does not know it is out of faze... There is no need to do this except where you are running a very short shaft that will bind and come apart when suspension travel is too much... I have had one come apart on me, before I made the down side travel stops, so that the rear end could not fall/hang down too far, could have and should have re mounted the shocks, so that they would have done that job, like the factory does in all stock cars... A 7 inch shaft is probably a bit strange to balance anyway, but it can be done if needed.
Keeper
Active Member
Hey if I learn something, I don't care!! hijack away
Gerry,
They are real close to 60 degrees, something like 59.7. As for the mounts you have any pics? I would like to see what you are taking about. I have a couple heim joints I can use instead of the clevises on the chassis side. I think I know what you are talking about, but you know a pic speaks 1000 words
.Working today, holy crap there was a lot of welding, of course I ran out of gas in the middle so I had to take a break and grab another bottle. Still have the flags/tags/wraps to make for the rear frame joints. I have an idea for wrapping the front crossmember sort of like Ron's plans do from the start. If I do it the way I envision it, you won't even notice its there.
Gerry
Well-Known Member
http://www.tbucketeers.com/gallery/image/1348-tie-bar-mounts-on-rear/
Hope this help. As you can see its a bit complicated with the pivots for the shock arm. I have bolted the mount so I can get them in and out but in your case I think you wont have to do this.
Gerry
Hope this help. As you can see its a bit complicated with the pivots for the shock arm. I have bolted the mount so I can get them in and out but in your case I think you wont have to do this.
Gerry
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