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Northstar T is taking shape

Russ.
My ecu is over 15 years old and is not a sequential fire system It fires in pairs. There is no limp mode on it. I can only assume that Greg at Kinslers knows what he is talking about but I will check with him again. As you say one 02 sensor in one pipe of an 8 pipe system is not really that good at averaging.
Gerry


All computers have a limp home mode. it's called a base map.
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all 0-2 sensors must be hot in order to function properly. when the engine is first started it has no input from the (cold) 0-2, so it operates by using a preset set of "base" instructions that resides in the computers memory (open loop operation). once the engine gets near operating temp, and the 0-2 becomes heated enough to give accurate information, the ecu switches to closed loop operation so it can take it's orders from all the sensors adorning your particular motor (closed loop operation). If you don't have an 0-2 sensor, the engine has no input other than the base map ( TPS and MAP may also play a part) to go by, so it stays in open loop mode.
A few race only setups, as well as high boost HOT street cars will stay in open loop the majority of the time, but even they need some 0-2 enlightenment once in a wile. For 99% of the efi street cars out there, if you're not using an 0-2 in the system you may as well stick a carb back on it............ In my humble opinion of course.
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Russ
 
All computers have a limp home mode. it's called a base map.
rolleyes.gif
all 0-2 sensors must be hot in order to function properly. when the engine is first started it has no input from the (cold) 0-2, so it operates by using a preset set of "base" instructions that resides in the computers memory (open loop operation). once the engine gets near operating temp, and the 0-2 becomes heated enough to give accurate information, the ecu switches to closed loop operation so it can take it's orders from all the sensors adorning your particular motor (closed loop operation). If you don't have an 0-2 sensor, the engine has no input other than the base map ( TPS and MAP may also play a part) to go by, so it stays in open loop mode.
A few race only setups, as well as high boost HOT street cars will stay in open loop the majority of the time, but even they need some 0-2 enlightenment once in a wile. For 99% of the efi street cars out there, if you're not using an 0-2 in the system you may as well stick a carb back on it............ In my humble opinion of course.
shrug.gif


Russ

Russ
That told me. I guess that even though I dont want the sight of an 02sensor on my headers its just going to be something I have to live with. I seem to remember someone saying the best place to put one is on the rear right hand cylinder as this is where the weakest mixture usually is. Any recommendations?

Gerry
 
Dang ... I thought I was catchin up buy figurin out my PCV set up!!! :thumb:

Ron
 
Russ
That told me. I guess that even though I dont want the sight of an 02sensor on my headers its just going to be something I have to live with. I seem to remember someone saying the best place to put one is on the rear right hand cylinder as this is where the weakest mixture usually is. Any recommendations?

Gerry

You could just poke it in wherever it's convienient and it would most likely work ok, but to get the most life out of the sensor, and the best results, it can get a bit more complicated.
For example: What type of 0-2 will you use? heated or non heated? are you using a basicly stock motor or do you have lumpy cams etc? What type of EFI are you running? factory or aftermarket? do you want to do your own tuning on the ECU? What type of headers are you using? how long are the primarys?
Left side or right shouldn't make any difference. just pick the side easiest to get to the wiring. A heated 0-2 sensor works best for headers, as they need to be further downstream anyway to avoid overheating the sensor tip, so collector installation generally works pretty well. a non heated (one wire) 0-2 needs to be closer to the Ex valve however, which usually means installing it in a single primary tube on header equiped engines.
I'll see if I can dig up a link or two so you can bone up on the subject if you'd like. Or just fill me in on what you have and I'd be happy to give it my best shot.

Cheers,
Russ
 
Dang Gerry. I just say your exhaust system on another thread. that thing is wild looking! I'd say you'll be using an 0-2 in a single pipe on that beast.
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Russ

Youngster. I hear ya man. the more I learn about these things the less I know.
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Russ
 
Sorry I opened the o2 can of worms. But it is our future. Look at a LS1 wiring harness for just the motor. Ls1 harness This is a cheap one at 529.00
 
Wheew. today was brutal. in the shop at 6:00 am and out at 7:30 pm. I need to go back to work to relax.
Not only is the T fully dissasembled, but the frame assy is now fully welded and the welds ground smooth. the front axle and spring has been sandblasted and primed (oh... did I mention I also built a sand blast cabinet this am to reclaim the sand. ya... I'm pooped. sure smiling however. always good to accomplish something.
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Russ
 
I agree with Russ about needing an O2 sensor, but I would only use a system that allows you to use a “Wide Band” O2 sensor. The older style “Narrow Band” O2 sensor is a low cost sensor that has a very small range (14.0:1 to 15.0:1 air fuel ratio) where the sensor is accurate. The “Narrow Band” O2 only works very close to Stoichiometric (14.7:1) mixture. It is really more of a switch than a sensor. 15 years ago this would have been the only O2 available. Kinsler’s statement of not making much of a change was correct since a high performance motor would not be in closed loop very much of the time with a “Narrow Band” sensor.

The “Wide Band” O2 reads a much larger useful range, usually around 10.0:1 to 16.0:1 air fuel mixture. Most engines will make maximum power between 12:1 to 13.5:1 and get better gas mileage at ratios around or at times higher than 14.7:1. The Stoichiometric ratio usually produces lower emissions with acceptable power, which is why the auto manufacturers us it.

The same guy, John Meaney, designed most of the more popular aftermarket EFI systems on the market. John designed Accel's DFI, Comp Cam’s “FAST”, Holley’s "Commander" and BigStuff3. They are all speed-density based and all work similar.

All of the speed density systems operate in either “Open loop” or “Closed loop”. To simplify things, “Open loop” just uses the information that has been programmed in the computers fuel map tables and only uses this information regardless of what the sensors are reading. The whole trick with EFI is to get the programming correct for the load, throttle position, altitude, etc., that the engine needs. Even the auto manufacturers can’t do this without the use of feedback from the sensors. Like Russ said, without an O2 sensor, it will run but it may be to rich or lean at different times causing drivability, gas mileage or performance issues.

When in “Closed loop”, the computer will get information from what ever sensors are available and then uses the O2 sensor to check and see how well it is managing fuel control. If the air fuel ratio is not where it should be, the computer will make as much adjustment as it is capable to try and correct it. Some of the systems can make adjustments of 5-10%, while I believe the Accel DFI has the largest adjustment range of approximately 25%.

As far as the number of O2 sensors is concerned, some of the aftermarket systems only allow you to use one sensor, while others allow you to use two O2 sensors. Many of the new cars produced today use two O2 sensors per bank. It’s common to see four O2 sensors on a V8 motor. This is done to make sure that the catalytic converter is working correctly. There is an upstream sensor before the converter and a downstream sensor after the converter.

Gerry, if I every get my car built, I plan on building 8 individual tube headers similar to yours. I will be using 2 “Wide Band” O2 sensors, one on cylinder #1 and one on cylinder #2. Performance wise it shouldn’t make any difference which cylinders are used, but appearance wise these cylinders are closest to the body with this design of header and will make concealing the wiring the easiest.

Here are a couple of pictures of Total Performance’s Tangerine “T” O2 sensors in a collector header. I thought it looked clean and was not very noticeable.

Bill

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Putz,

yup. if you want plug and play it costs big bucks. I try to fab everything I can to save a bit, but I do usually buy a basic engine harness to start from. EFI is more hassle to set up, but the benifits are hard to ignore. as a case in point: The Northstar is 287 CI displacement. in the stock Cadillac it developes 300 HP and 295 ft lb torque. the torque curve is nearly flat from 1400 RPM to 6200 rpm. it gets 28 MPG and runs smooth as ....... well..., a Cadillac. I don't know of a carb engine that could even come close to those specs all in one package.
More hassle yes, but worth it IMHO.

Russ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
Dang Gerry. I just say your exhaust system on another thread. that thing is wild looking! I'd say you'll be using an 0-2 in a single pipe on that beast.
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Russ

Youngster. I hear ya man. the more I learn about these things the less I know.
fn.gif


Russ

Russ
Kinsler supplied everything. The 02 sensor the ECU the whole lot (I am still smarting from the bill and that was 15 years ago). Your best advice as to how close to the head it should be positioned would be a a help. I think its a single wire type but will check and let you know.

Engine is a GM 350HO crate motor and the kinsler was made for the car including the mapping which was done to my specs. I gave Kinsler the weight, final drive ratio, tyre size and driving style.

Last thing the 02 sensor is real, and I mean REAL ugly... thats why I was trying to do without it.

Gerry
 
Nice looking project! Can't wait to see it develop...

Thanks LuminAl.
It's in a rather boring stage of the build at the moment, or I'd be posting more. I'm still working on finish work on the frame and running gear. Not my favorite part of a project for sure, but it needs to be done. I'm hoping to finish up this phase by the end of next weekend, and be moving on to paint and re-assembly of the chassis. then I'll start enjoying it again..... trouble is I still can't decide on a paint color scheme........., hopefully it will hit me soon.

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Russ
 
Short update: The chassis bodywork is essentially done. I just laid down some high-build primer on the frame and all the misc bits and pieces of the chassis (it's a very large pile of bits and pieces !). Tomorrow I expect to paint the chassis and some of those same bits that I primed today. The frame, as well as some of the bits, will be a darkish smoke color (98 Corvette) . I'll be painting the rear axle assy in the body color, so I picked up the paint for that yesterday as well. I hesitate to say the body, radiator shell, and rear end will be green, as that might give you the wrong impression. this will actually appear to be black until you get it out in the sunshine. in the light you'll see that it's a dark metallic pearl green. I've been in turmoil over the color for weeks, but this may be perfect, as my wife likes green, but I'm not crazy about it, so this way I can say I painted it green just for her ;) . I'm also going to try my hand at some chameleon on the radius rods, springs, and perhaps other small parts just to add some pizzazzz. I've never used that before so it should be fun.The wife has my digi camera at the lake for the weekend, so pics will have to wait till next week. Russ
 
The body color looks like this but with more metalic. only the surfaces that you see dirrectly into appear green. This pic is a different paint system (HOK), but it has a very similar end result.

Russ
 

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I almost shot myself in the foot today by getting anxious to spray some green. it's a rather lengthy 3 part process to shoot, so when I finally finished, it was about 45 minutes before dark. (I shoot in an outdoor plastic "booth").
But I like it!!! so that should at least make work more tolerable tomorrow
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I expect to do some striping on the green bits in either a lighter green or perhaps gold (or both).
The frame came out to my liking also BTW.
Now if I could just decide what color to paint which parts for the rest of the car..... no since planning too far ahead I guess
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.

Russ

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That grey is an awesome color on you frame. You should paint more parts that color.
 

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